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Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

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Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#161

Post by akoboldfrying »

t0mas88 wrote: post #145
sirodoht wrote: post #14

Free software is about freedom. Restricting it from anyone means it's not free. There is no requirement that we must create free software but if it's called free I think it should always have the basic qualities of freedom; not only when it fits our purposes and our values.

It's a choice for the authors to make based on what type of free they believe in. I think free under MIT and GPL are two different philosophies on how you see "free". MIT: free for anyone, do whatever you want GPL: free if you also make your software free AGPL: GPL but SaaS can't circumvent the requirement to make your software free I see why principled open source proponents would select GPL or AGPL. They don't just…

I like the GPL and think its "virality" is both clever and a worthwhile social goal, but I think it's misleading to call it "free". It directly restricts possible usage of the software in question -- yes, in a way that's designed to increase another kind of freedom, but it restricts nonetheless.

FWIW I have the same quarrel with people who talk about a country being "free". To my mind, a truly free country would have no laws. It would be a horrible place, because the restrictions that laws place on us tend to make things better for everyone (we may disagree on this law or that law, but some laws, like "Don't kill someone without a very good reason", would have >99% popular support anywhere in the world).

"More free" does not necessarily imply "better"; it could be better or worse. I'd like to shift usage of the words "free" and "freedom" in this direction, but think it's probably a lost cause as the words are too emotionally charged with connotations of "good".

Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#162

Post by gus_massa »

smeej wrote: post #39
cadamsdotcom wrote: post #11

Open source is a gift you’re giving. Companies take that gift and use it to provide a service for cheaper than it would otherwise be if they had to build it all themselves. You are already benefiting from open source - but it is a tiny benefit and subtle and very indirect and very diffuse. Licensing is thorny but it’s personal choice too.. would you use a project whose license is “use it for now unless or until I dec…

I think I probably would use a project that had a license that said "you can use this for now, but if I later decide I don't want evil people to use it, you'll have to maintain your own fork based on the last version before I made that decision." Isn't that kind of always the bargain we're making? We can use someone's work as long as they're willing to let us, but if they change the license, we might not be able to c…

All MIT/BSD projects are ike that. The mantainer can get up tomorrow and relicence the sofware. (Keeping some attributions if other persons contributed.) You are free to fork the last free version.

With [A]GPL it's only possible if there are no external contributions or everyone agree. Again, you are free to fork the last free version.

Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#163

Post by kryptiskt »

mejutoco wrote: post #155
sokoloff wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you make good or bad resolvable? Is a piece of code being used by Tyson Foods okay? A vegetarian software engineer who contributed to the package might say “no, that use contributes to the killing of animals for food, which is bad.” If you need to evaluate all the context to know whether a license is usable, it makes it extremely hard for “good guys” to use code under that license. (It’s generally very easy fo…

> How do you make good or bad resolvable? It is not a computer program, but a an ethics problem. We can solve it by thinking of the context and the ethics of it. I realize it is the topic of this thread, but OP did not mention anything in relation to licenses, and was just talking about good and bad not existing objectively (without context). I think, if we came with a specific situation, most people with similar val…

But in a typical FOSS scenario, your decision to open source the code and Tyson Foods decision to use it are decoupled. You don't know who all the potential users are when you open source it, so you can't consider all the concrete cases and make sure that the license reflects them. In the same way Tyson Foods isn't going to contact all the creators of libraries they want to use and ask if their concrete use case is in line with the creator's ethics.

Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#164

Post by bmitch3020 »

Do you want to spend your time creating a project the world finds useful, or do you want to make a political statement that gets ignored? Because any attempt to restrict the license turns into the latter.

If the project is even slightly useful, but with a restrictive license, someone else will create an alternative with a free license. The community will quickly move, and the time spent trying to push a political opinion will be wasted.

In the long term, a free software license is always going to win. Even when it's unsustainable for one maintainer, the software remains free, and if it's useful enough, others will take on the maintainer role.

For sustainability, that's going to be a mix of lobbying your government, and companies realizing they need to hire developers because the open source maintainers aren't able to do everything for free. Just realize that governments are slow with conflicting goals. And companies will minimize their costs, leaving the average open source maintainer at the edge of being sustainable.

Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#165

Post by Yoric »

mpol wrote: post #150
awesome_dude wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this thinking that, in reality, there's no such thing as objectively 'good' or objectively 'bad' It's all context and timing. Almost everyone that will attack this idea will present actions that are loaded with context - murder, is killing when it's bad, self defence is killing when it's good. If you look at everything, and look at it's non-contextual action, then you can easily find contextually 'good' and co…

In classic times there was no general concept of good or evil. The question was about if something is fitting in its context. With the rise of Christianity came the general concept of good or bad.

Even that evolved with time.

This was one of the many disagreements between Catholics and Protestants during the 16th-17th century, for instance, with some of the most powerful Catholic currents (e.g. Jesuits) being very much in favor of rethinking morality to take into account context, while the most powerful Protestant currents pushed for taking morality back to [their interpretation of] the manichean early Christian dogmas.

Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#166

Post by Yoric »

kryptiskt wrote: post #163
mejutoco wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you make good or bad resolvable? It is not a computer program, but a an ethics problem. We can solve it by thinking of the context and the ethics of it. I realize it is the topic of this thread, but OP did not mention anything in relation to licenses, and was just talking about good and bad not existing objectively (without context). I think, if we came with a specific situation, most people with similar val…

But in a typical FOSS scenario, your decision to open source the code and Tyson Foods decision to use it are decoupled. You don't know who all the potential users are when you open source it, so you can't consider all the concrete cases and make sure that the license reflects them. In the same way Tyson Foods isn't going to contact all the creators of libraries they want to use and ask if their concrete use case is i…

Agreed. This would be a logistical nightmare on both ends. Especially if the licenses can be revoked if and when Tyson Foods decides to change some of their policies and/or the author decides to change their political views.

I believe that this would effectively make sure that nobody uses these licenses.

Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#167

Post by gus_massa »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #46

I created a software license which is effectively BSD, but lists priority boycott targets and rationale from BDS (boycott-divest-sanction for Palestinian liberation), in an information-only section that has no bearing on the software freedoms and restrictions, but is nevertheless required to be copied as part of the license[1]. I don't actually recommend using this specific license yet, because the text from bdsmovem…

Google and Amazon have lawyers, they will take 1 second to review it and forbit it for internal use. They will do the same for every unusal license, not only for this one.

Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#168

Post by lclc »

gus_massa wrote: post #158
paulbjensen wrote: post #135

In theory you can change the licence and hope that those that use the software respect the licence terms, but that depends on trusting others. I think of the case of the Russian programmer who was arrested and jailed for stealing proprietary code from Goldman Sachs. During the trial it was revealed that Goldman Sachs would use open source software and replace the software licence with their own: "Open source was an i…

From the article: > ‘If you tell me everything, I’ll talk to the judge, and he’ll go easy on you.’ Reminder: That's a lie. Shut up and ask for your lawyer.

Indeed. As to why, see this video with Regent Law Professor James Duane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

It's pretty shocking.

Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#169

Post by gus_massa »

Towaway69 wrote: post #108

Is there something like the societal license where you can select different levels of harm: a) can be used to kill people b) can only be used to harm people c) can only be used for animal testing d) no harm should come to any living creature, neither in thought nor action. Something like the creative commons license just for evil. I like to use non enforceable license such as “don’t do evil” license because it causes…

> d) no harm should come to any living creature

Can corn farmers use it?

Can it be used in a factory that makes anti-mosquito nets?

Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#170

Post by greatgib »

Always the same rant of people profiting open source without understanding it.

This guy is free to select whatever license it wants for his code. But don't expect profiting from the open source (in the common sense of free software) brand if you don't want to respect it's principes.

Would the package be as successful? Have has many users, contributors, ... The author is free to test that if he wants but his rant isnot justified for the whole open source world.

Also, I'm quite sure that he is also a freeloader happy to benefit without contributing. Even from big companies. I'm quite sure that he never paid or contributed for npm, GitHub or his IDE for example...

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