This is Not ok • Hacker News Board

Re: This is Not ok

#161

Post by rmc » Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 8:59 AM UTC

Locke1689 wrote: post #156

rmc wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have just used the "Tone Argument" which derails the argument. It's a common response (it's in Derailing for Dummies http://www.derailingfordummies.com/complete.html#angry ). Please try to stay on topic.

You're right, but for the wrong reasons. There's no such thing as a "tone" argument. Recall your freshman year Greek rhetoric course -- what are the three main elements of argumentation? Logos (logic), pathos (appeal to emotion), and ethos (morality or "greatness" of character). If you start yelling at someone, chances are you're going to destroy your pathos and ethos. Being persuasive involves more than just logos,…

The "Tone argument" doesn't apply to the person who's being annoyed (they are not making a tone argument), but to someone who 'replies' to them.

Think of "tone argument" like "ad hominem", it's a reply to what someone says, but you don't actually respond or address what they said, instead you address how they said it in a very angry manner ("tone argument"), or based on what sort of person they are ("ad hominem")

Re: This is Not ok

#162

Post by protomyth » Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 2:56 PM UTC

raganwald wrote: post #155

protomyth wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will protect Augusta's right to have just male members (not true anymore), just as I will protect the rights of every female-only gym. I will further bet that the female-only gyms have larger benefits than Augusta opening up to female members. It is an unfair comparison between a profession and a club. They do not hold even close to the same place in society.

Who said Augusta shouldn't have male-only members? The point is that IT departments shouldn't behave like private clubs. The industry behaves like a private club, but it isn't a private club.

Well, I interpreted you p.s. to mean that. A lot of industries in the US (cannot speak for outside the US) need to be more receptive to members of the opposite gender. I am hoping both CompSci and pre-K education both make strides in the coming years.

Re: This is Not ok

#163

Post by nancyhua » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 2:42 AM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #157

nancyhua wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We bring up nursing: well, doctors used to be 100% men. Maybe doctors or biologists used to say, "Women are not interested in medicine or biology." Would any person say that now? Poets probably used to say, "Women aren't interested in writing at all." When women became poets, writers probably used to say, "Women aren't interested in serious literature." Artists probably used to say, "Women aren't interested in art- t…

You have some very interesting points. My mom always says(Who had a working career of almost 30 years), that working women live in a world of their own. Her sisters never went to work. She always found that amazing, that a few individuals can spend their whole life doing nothing. Yet now when you talk to my aunts they live in their own world where they have every reason in the world why not working is right. When the…

You're right that fear of failure prevents many people from reaching anywhere near their full potential.

The working mom thing is a separate issue from representation of women in various industries such as tech. For me, I'm hoping to band together with friends so we can all watch each others' kids and cooperate more and have the whole childrearing thing be more "village"-centered and less of an individual burden.

Re: This is Not ok

#164

Post by cardiffspaceman » Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 8:10 PM UTC

nancyhua wrote: post #145

jiggy2011 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on whether you believe women are trying to enter the tech field and are being scared away, or whether they are not interested in the first place. I would suggest it is mainly the latter, look at any IT/CS type course at a college and you will see mainly men and these are people who haven't even entered the field yet to get a chance to be scared off. The point regards passion is an interesting one, I imagin…

We bring up nursing: well, doctors used to be 100% men. Maybe doctors or biologists used to say, "Women are not interested in medicine or biology." Would any person say that now? Poets probably used to say, "Women aren't interested in writing at all." When women became poets, writers probably used to say, "Women aren't interested in serious literature." Artists probably used to say, "Women aren't interested in art- t…

I think you are making good points, but you might detect, in the work of the Guerrilla Girls, a contrary view on the world of art and how women fare in it.

Re: This is Not ok

#165

Post by nancyhua » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 6:14 AM UTC

cardiffspaceman wrote: post #164

nancyhua wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We bring up nursing: well, doctors used to be 100% men. Maybe doctors or biologists used to say, "Women are not interested in medicine or biology." Would any person say that now? Poets probably used to say, "Women aren't interested in writing at all." When women became poets, writers probably used to say, "Women aren't interested in serious literature." Artists probably used to say, "Women aren't interested in art- t…

I think you are making good points, but you might detect, in the work of the Guerrilla Girls, a contrary view on the world of art and how women fare in it.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out. I don't know if women are dominant in art. I meant many art classes these days have a lot of girls so people are probably less likely to claim women don't like art.