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US probes Waymo robotaxis over school bus safety

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Re: US probes Waymo robotaxis over school bus safety

#161

Post by ErroneousBosh »

izacus wrote: post #16
jmpman wrote: post #10

I’m also curious about school zones. The one near my house has a sign, “School” “Speed Limit 35” “7:00AM to 4:00PM School Days” Now, how does a robotaxi comply with that? Does it go to the district website and look up the current school year calendar? Or does it work like a human, and simply observe the patterns of the school traffic, and assume the general school calendar? I suspect it continues in Mad Max mode.

Wait, how does that work? Every person in your city needs to know the exact calendar of that school?

In the UK we have a sign saying something like "20MPH WHEN LIGHTS ARE FLASHING". During term time when pupils are entering or leaving the school (say between 8am and 9:30am, around lunchtime, and from around 3pm to 4:30pm) someone at the school switches the lights on. Usually it's one of the "lollipop men" who stand at crossing points that are not otherwise marked, and hold out a sign to stop traffic to let children cross, but often it's just programmed into some timer somewhere.

It's pretty simple.

You don't need clever software or self-driving cars, you just need to lift your right foot a little near schools.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/34QgN2KTQmGML2Ae8

Here is an example of one that just lights up with a 20mph limit when it's needed, from near where I grew up. Pretty high-tech for a remote part of the world, eh?

Re: US probes Waymo robotaxis over school bus safety

#162

Post by wiether »

DangitBobby wrote: post #135
spike021 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the point of a bus having lights flashing and the stop sign extended is that kids could be coming or going from any direction and especially when least expected. it's certainly a minor issue until the worst case scenario happens.

Lots of people make this mistake around school buses. It's probably time for a different system if we are worried about children's safety.

We have some nice initiatives here.

Either completely removing cars from streets near schools, or blocking cars when children are coming or leaving school.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rues_aux_%C3%A9coles_%C3%A0_Pa...

Re: US probes Waymo robotaxis over school bus safety

#163

Post by tehjoker »

kelnos wrote: post #116
tehjoker wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why accept the company's say so without any proof being offered or even a description of the fix? If it's been years and this kind of thing, described in regulations so clearly some attention was paid by engineers, still happens, then maybe fixing it isn't trivial.

Sure, perhaps we shouldn't accept the company's say-so, but this seems like a fairly easy thing for a third party to verify. If that's not being done, that's not Waymo's fault; lobby the local regulatory body or legislature to get that sort of thing required.

Maybe verifying isn't trivial either? Sometimes bugs only appear with a lot of interactions.

Re: US probes Waymo robotaxis over school bus safety

#164

Post by globular-toast »

spike021 wrote: post #118
andoando wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont get it. It looks like it just made a left turn in front of a stopped school bus? That's illegal? In any case it seems like tiny issue. Illegal or not it didnt do anything dangerous

the point of a bus having lights flashing and the stop sign extended is that kids could be coming or going from any direction and especially when least expected. it's certainly a minor issue until the worst case scenario happens.

This implies the absence of a school bus with flashing lights means kids can't be coming and going from any direction when least expected. It's a horrible solution and just another example of reducing drivers' responsibility on the road and effectively making it the victim's fault for being there.

The Waymo is going to be on high alert at all times, regardless of any flashing lights or stop signs.

Re: US probes Waymo robotaxis over school bus safety

#165

Post by heavyset_go »

krisoft wrote: post #4

To be honest. I think this is one of the strengths of autonomous cars. With humans when they do this at max we can punish that individual. To increase population wide compliance we can do a safety awareness campaign, ramp up enforcement, ramp up the fines. But all of these cost a lot of money to do, take a while to have an effect, need to be repeated/kept up, and only help statistically. With a robot driver we can de…

Unless there is one car that everyone drives, it will never be this easy.

And if there is one car that everyone drives, it's equally easy for a single bug to harm people on a scale that's inconceivable to me.

Re: US probes Waymo robotaxis over school bus safety

#166

Post by heavyset_go »

MindSpunk wrote: post #87
themafia wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we can develop a fix and roll it out on all of them. You have to know what you're fixing first. You're going to write a lot of code in blood this way. It's not that people are particularly bad at driving it's that the road is exceptionally dynamic with many different users and use cases all trying to operate in a synchronized fashion with a dash of strong regulation sprinkled in.

> You have to know what you're fixing first. You're going to write a lot of code in blood this way. This is exactly how the aviation industry works, and it's one of the safest ways to travel in the world. Autonomous driving enables 'identify problem -> widely deployed and followed solutions' in a way human drivers just can't. Things won't be perfect at first but there's an upper limit on safety with human drivers tha…

Planes maintain vertical and lateral separation away from literally everything. Autonomy is easier in relatively controlled environments, navigating streets is more unlike flying than it is similar.

Re: US probes Waymo robotaxis over school bus safety

#167

Post by izacus »

ErroneousBosh wrote: post #161
izacus wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, how does that work? Every person in your city needs to know the exact calendar of that school?

In the UK we have a sign saying something like "20MPH WHEN LIGHTS ARE FLASHING". During term time when pupils are entering or leaving the school (say between 8am and 9:30am, around lunchtime, and from around 3pm to 4:30pm) someone at the school switches the lights on. Usually it's one of the "lollipop men" who stand at crossing points that are not otherwise marked, and hold out a sign to stop traffic to let children…

Ok, I get it. Here we just have 30kph limit with speed bumps at all times.

Re: US probes Waymo robotaxis over school bus safety

#168

Post by falcor84 »

heavyset_go wrote: post #165
krisoft wrote: post #4

To be honest. I think this is one of the strengths of autonomous cars. With humans when they do this at max we can punish that individual. To increase population wide compliance we can do a safety awareness campaign, ramp up enforcement, ramp up the fines. But all of these cost a lot of money to do, take a while to have an effect, need to be repeated/kept up, and only help statistically. With a robot driver we can de…

Unless there is one car that everyone drives, it will never be this easy. And if there is one car that everyone drives, it's equally easy for a single bug to harm people on a scale that's inconceivable to me.

Well, maybe not "this easy", but if we can all agree on an extensive test suite that all autonomous cars have to follow to be allowed on the road, it'd be almost like that, without the risk of a single bug taking down all of them.

Re: US probes Waymo robotaxis over school bus safety

#169

Post by kiba »

krisoft wrote: post #4

To be honest. I think this is one of the strengths of autonomous cars. With humans when they do this at max we can punish that individual. To increase population wide compliance we can do a safety awareness campaign, ramp up enforcement, ramp up the fines. But all of these cost a lot of money to do, take a while to have an effect, need to be repeated/kept up, and only help statistically. With a robot driver we can de…

Road designs play an important role as well, it's not just enforcing the law.

Some roads are going to be safer simply because drivers don't feel safe driving fast. Others are safer simply because there's less opportunities to get into a collision.

Wide street in cities encourage faster driving which doesn't really save a lot of time while making the streets more dangerous, for example.

Re: US probes Waymo robotaxis over school bus safety

#170

Post by jofzar »

anitil wrote: post #91

I have a question about the rules of school busses (I'm not American). It seems like the expectation is that _all_ traffic is required to stop if a bus is stopped, is that correct? If so, why? Here (Australia) the bus just pulls over and you get off on to the sidewalk, even children, why is it not the case in the US?

I'm an Australian also, this is the video that blew my mind.

https://youtu.be/lShDhGn5e5s

It's a long video but the tldr is that Americans don't have foot paths. You would think they would but nope, it's not like Australia where everywhere you walk has a path and down paths to the road.

Even directly around schools no footpaths, and it's all because it's no one's responsibility other then the home owner.

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