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Meow.camera

meow.camera

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Re: Meow.camera

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pendulum could swing the other way and instead animal rights activists could be looked upon with complete disdain. Just like human rights, progress is never guaranteed.

Dystopian comments are hot right now, but your comment really don't have basis when looking at long periods of time. We are objectively in a better place now than ever, and that is usually true by picking a time and looking backwards 100+ years.

I wasn't particularly being dystopian. I was thinking of the quote: "Progress has not followed a straight ascending line, but a spiral with rhythms of progress and retrogression, of evolution and dissolution."

– Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Re: Meow.camera

#162
post #17

These feeders are part of a stray cat control program in China, aiming to both feed & neuter stray cat populations there. There have been some distasteful incidents of online groups organizing to try and harm/kill specific cats famous through this feeder program. China lacks animal welfare laws to protect these cats, it's not a crime. So people have taken to identifying these abusers and reporting them to their emplo…

"Membership" in anything should never be criminalized—that's freedom of association. Animal abuse should be criminalized.

We must secure the existence of animal abuse groups and a future for free association.

Re: Meow.camera

#163
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which life would you choose for yourself? Would you be okay if someone else chose for you, especially if the choice was different?

Would you ask an amoeba the same thing? A plant? What about an insect? A mouse? Humans are capable of thought that cows are not. Chickens are not. For example, cows cannot conceive of object persistence. Human infants do not until 2+ years, some parrots do, etc. So what you have to ask yourself, is would the animals even be aware they are captured? And do they have the intellect to care? Or do they entirely live "in…

Just a quibble - children learn object permanence at around six months of age. Also, I don't think the jury is quite in on cows - I've seen papers that argue both ways.

One way we could quantify cow happiness, if we were interested in doing so, is in the amount of stress hormones they produce.

Re: Meow.camera

#164

I'm not vegan, but I'm always really surprised by the difference in how we see cats and pigs. See e.g. https://theintercept.com/2020/05/29/pigs-factory-farms-venti... https://www.ted.com/talks/lewis_bollard_how_to_end_factory_f... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_molting The US also has basically no animal welfare laws for the vast majority of its animals

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Re: Meow.camera

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agree. I have said this in another comment but I feel like its up to us. Slavery wasn't eradicated suddenly and became suddenly morally bad, I think that slowly but steadily we got better though till the point that now everyone mostly considers slavery morally evil. Lets hope the same can be the case with animals as well. I can't emphasize the impact of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gqwpfEcBjI&t=25s (ea…

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Re: Meow.camera

#166
post #163
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you ask an amoeba the same thing? A plant? What about an insect? A mouse? Humans are capable of thought that cows are not. Chickens are not. For example, cows cannot conceive of object persistence. Human infants do not until 2+ years, some parrots do, etc. So what you have to ask yourself, is would the animals even be aware they are captured? And do they have the intellect to care? Or do they entirely live "in…

Just a quibble - children learn object permanence at around six months of age. Also, I don't think the jury is quite in on cows - I've seen papers that argue both ways. One way we could quantify cow happiness, if we were interested in doing so, is in the amount of stress hormones they produce.

This reminds me of a story, where a utility had buried power lines near a farmer's grazing field. These were milk cows, and he didn't know why but they had stopped giving milk, and seemed sickly.

Vets couldn't figure it out. They seemed healthy otherwise.

Turned out that for some reason, the cows were constantly being low-level shocked.

Most people I know, prefer to think of eating an animal that was happy until it was killed, and killed mercifully. It could be an important metric, much like grass-fed or some other property.

Re: Meow.camera

#167

I'm not vegan, but I'm always really surprised by the difference in how we see cats and pigs. See e.g. https://theintercept.com/2020/05/29/pigs-factory-farms-venti... https://www.ted.com/talks/lewis_bollard_how_to_end_factory_f... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_molting The US also has basically no animal welfare laws for the vast majority of its animals

Future generations are gonna look back at us for our treatment of animals, especially farmed animals, much the way we look back at our slave owning ancestors. And just like we wonder how so many otherwise morally upstanding people participated in such an obviously abhorrent system as human slavery, they will think the same about people in our generation. Unfortunately, it turns out that social norms are extremely pow…

You can find the abuse of animals morally objectionably (I do), but comparing it to human slavery rests on a grossly false moral equivalence between human beings and other animals. Indeed, it usually rests on sentiment or convention rather than a sound and rationally grounded objective ethics.

Chattel slavery was first and foremost morally objectionable, because human beings have rights that conflict with its practice. Rights are rooted in two properties human beings have, namely, the ability to comprehend one's actions and one's situation, and the ability to freely choose between alternatives. If I can understand my actions and I can freely choose to act one way or another, then I am, in principle [1], a moral agent and thus morally responsible for my actions. But for me to be able to fulfill those responsibilities as a moral agent, certain conditions must be met and this claim on others to supply me with those conditions we call rights. Without those conditions, I cannot do what I have a responsibility to do. Non-human animals [2] lack these properties, which is why we do not hold them morally accountable, and because they don't have responsibilities, they do not have rights. (I realize that it has become customary to pull rights out of thin air without the slightest moral scruple or justification about doing so.)

Of course, it would be morally objectionable for us to torment animals, but we are free to make use of animals in ways that do not contract the human good, rightly understood.

[0] The only sound, objective basis for morality is human nature, which determines what actions accord with it and which contradict it. So, it is morally objectionable to torment animals, even though they have no rights, because - in short - it contradicts human nature and thus my good as a human being. Sadism is a serious defect.

[1] I say "in principle", because in practice, as you'll recall, mens rea has legal significance for a reason. If I kill someone by accident, then I did not choose freely to kill him, and so I have not committed murder, only involuntary manslaughter or whatever. If I kill someone, because I believed he was a monster from the 7th dimension trying to kill me, then I did not comprehend my situation and thus the nature of my action. So, in practice, I may fail to exercise what in principle I have the power to do by virtue of my nature as a human being. But other animals do not have this power by nature.

[2] To preempt the inevitable petty drive-by pedant, I define "human" as any animal with these two properties, so according to this view, an intelligent alien from another planet would also be human, despite occupying a place in a separate phylogenetic tree or whatever.

Re: Meow.camera

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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The stuff coming out of young republicans is beyond the pale. These kids are making vile jokes about doing a genocide / Holocaust of Democrats, minorities, their political opponents, etc. And they’ve been consistently doing it for so long in this chat, that it’s hard to dismiss this as some crass joking. It seems like many of these people sincerely hold pro-Nazi views.

I don't consider late 20s and early 30s to be "kids" though.

Re: Meow.camera

#170
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Future generations are gonna look back at us for our treatment of animals, especially farmed animals, much the way we look back at our slave owning ancestors. And just like we wonder how so many otherwise morally upstanding people participated in such an obviously abhorrent system as human slavery, they will think the same about people in our generation. Unfortunately, it turns out that social norms are extremely pow…

The difference being that enslaved humans actually were equal and are thriving now, the enslaved animal populations will crash when the farming stops. Though better to die free, than live as a slave.

Not sure an individual dying and a whole species dying are quite the same thing.
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