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Microsoft 365 Copilot's commercial failure

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Re: Microsoft 365 Copilot's commercial failure

#161

Post by w0m »

noisem4ker wrote: post #106
serallak wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The part where it gave you access to a thread you were not a part of seems scary to me.. In this case your absence from the thread was probably an oversight, but in general there could be a very good reason for it

The only way I can reasonably interpret it is that it was a discussion on a Teams channel they had access to but weren't involved in.

this; it was a public channel I had access to, but never look at (I'm on... too many to keep up with, fairly large company).

Re: Microsoft 365 Copilot's commercial failure

#162

Post by mrandish »

1718627440 wrote: post #155
mrandish wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. Further down thread I wrote to another poster a summary of what's really happening now when you remap the CoPilot key - copied here... The CoPilot key is really sending: Shift+Alt+Win+Ctrl+F23 which Windows now uses as the shortcut to run the CoPilot application. When you remap the CoPilot key to right-Ctrl only the F23 is being remapped to right-Ctrl. Due to the way Windows works and because MSFT is now sen…

> Shift+Alt+Win+Ctrl What??? Who has introduced that, is there a reason, why they are using all the modifiers?

> is there a reason

Using more modifiers reduces the odds of conflicting with any other existing shortcut/hotkey - and since the intent is that the combination is only ever generated automatically with the CoPilot key - there's no issue with users having to remember or perform it. The problem isn't with them using all those modifiers, it's that they are doing it in a non-standard way that breaks remapping that key. They could have easily used all those modifiers in a way that doesn't break full remapping.

Re: Microsoft 365 Copilot's commercial failure

#163

Post by mrandish »

typpilol wrote: post #158
mrandish wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, remapping can work in narrower cases where right-CTRL is only used in combination with non-modifier keys. CoPilot is really sending: Shift+Alt+Win+Ctrl+F23. When you remap the CoPilot key to right-Ctrl only the F23 is being remapped to right-Ctrl. Due to the way Windows works and because MSFT is now sending F23 DOWN and then F23 UP when the CoPilot key has only been pressed Down , the other modifiers remain pres…

That's so strange. Microsoft really makes me scratch my head sometimes. I know power toys has that setting for low level hook but I think it's only for the windows key

> Microsoft really makes me scratch my head sometimes.

Indeed.

> I know power toys has that setting for low level hook but I think it's only for the windows key

As far as I've been able to determine, PowerToys remapping is the same application level mapping that can be done with AutoHotKey, other similar programs and manual registry keys.

Re: Microsoft 365 Copilot's commercial failure

#164

Post by wkat4242 »

seec wrote: post #160
wkat4242 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even office isn't that good. It's basically been static in features for 25 years (until copilot came around). It took them a decade to surpass the 65535-row problem in excel. Microsoft get really lazy when they have a virtual monopoly. We saw the same with Internet Explorer. They just left it to whither away until it was too late. And yeah Teams, I can't stand it. Outlook too, in particular the "new" one that doesn't…

> Microsoft get really lazy when they have a virtual monopoly. That's not very specific to Microsoft really. You can say the same thing about Google, Apple or any other big corp that managed to capture a market where users don't really have real alternatives.

I don't agree, for example Google hasn't done to Chrome what Microsoft did to IE, just basically dropping all development. And Chrome probably has a bigger marketshare than IE ever did.

Re: Microsoft 365 Copilot's commercial failure

#165

Post by keeda »

Hmm, my first thought was, 1.81% of 440M enterprise customers after two years sure sounds bad, but I had no reference frame to compare to. That's 8 million users, which is negligible compared to ChatGPT numbers, but it is also an enterprise tool, not a consumer product. So I thought it may help to recontextualize this number to the realm of adoption of enterprise tools, maybe even specifically Microsoft enterprise tools.

So I thought, maybe the Copilot GTM is probably following the same strategy as another enterprise tool that was pushed onto its existing customer base: Teams. So I went looking for data on the rate of Teams adoption.

Interestingly, the sources I found suggest that Teams also had 8 million users in 2019, two years after release!

https://www.demandsage.com/microsoft-teams-statistics/

https://www.businessofapps.com/data/microsoft-teams-statisti...

Note, this was before Teams got a massive boost in early 2020 during the Covid push to remote. And for all the hate MS Teams gets, we see where it is today.

So maybe this is just following the normal curve of adoption of Microsoft products. Maybe it's even doing better than Teams, considering Copilot is not free, as Teams was at launch.

Re: Microsoft 365 Copilot's commercial failure

#166

Post by olyjohn »

chris_wot wrote: post #69
PeterHolzwarth wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some, but what about the others? The reddit mentality of "everyone hates LLM AI tools" is just a very loud segment. What about everyone else? What about a random Joe who asks it questions to find some path through figuring out why their computer is acting all wonky? What about the people who don't know the first thing about dealing with their water heater suddenly going south, and ask it some basic questions of h…

Because a new icon in the system tray means nothing to people. People screen out most of what is in the system tray. If they want to find something via AI, they’ll use their web browser and go to ChatGPT or Gemini.

People ignore the system tray so much, because it is so full of garbage, that Microsoft had to provide a "Hide unused icons" option, and eventually made a control panel to manage which icons you see.

I mean I remember when browser toolbar spyware was rampant, people literally ignored half the screen when they managed to install 30 toolbars.

Re: Microsoft 365 Copilot's commercial failure

#167

Post by arielcostas »

bitwize wrote: post #107
cheeseomlit wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And .NET Core to .NET, not to be confused with .NET Framework

.NET was always a clusterfuck of naming, as in the early 2000s Microsoft was slapping the .NET label everywhere. .NET Passport (now known as Microsoft accounts), .NET My Services, Visual Studio .NET (which was the same as regular VS, just with support for building C# and VB.NET apps added), .NET Server 2003 (Windows Server 2003), et weary cetera. In this respect, as in many others related to .NET, Microsoft was inspi…

So Microsoft did with .NET what they now do with Copilot, right? GitHub Copilot (AI-assisted code completion and chat), Microsoft 365 Copilot (the suite), Microsoft Copilot (the chat thingy), Windows Copilot (the chat thingy, but directly on Windows), Copilot for Azure (LLM doing RAG), Copilot for Dynamics 365 (I assume something similar)...

Re: Microsoft 365 Copilot's commercial failure

#168

Post by arielcostas »

omcnoe wrote: post #62

Github Copilot is a pain too. Somehow they are capable of building potentially world changing LLM's, but can't build a working subscription billing system? I'm completely locked out of my Copilot access, that I paid for, with no response from support. Whole experience has somewhat soured me on relying on Microsoft for any critical part of my workflow if the response when things go wrong is complete silence. Put the L…

That's strange, my experience with GitHub and GH Copilot have been great, unlike with other Microsoft products that have their billing integrated in the Microsoft account or MS365, or Entra or whatever they call the "company accounts" today.

Plus for 10$ a month (~8.50 EUR last month) I get more-than-enough-for-me access to Gemini, Claude and OpenAI models from my code editor. I wouldn't pay double for Claude Code or Cursor, so I feel like it's a good enough deal.

Re: Microsoft 365 Copilot's commercial failure

#169

Post by iamleppert »

Sam Altman gave Nadella the most watered down version of ChatGPT he possibly could. The AI embedded into every Microsoft product I've tried has felt like at least 2 - 3 generations old than what you can get directly from OpenAI. You think it would be much better, having native access to tools and data. Nope. I could find no evidence of any of that.

Re: Microsoft 365 Copilot's commercial failure

#170

Post by wkat4242 »

wkat4242 wrote: post #131
pjc50 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LLM will replace web search. This kills the crab. I mean, kills the Internet. And it's not clear what happens to the existing search advertising business in this scenario.

Google already killed the internet as we knew it. There's a reason engines like yagi have their own spider for "the small web" because google basically ignores everything but the big commercial clickbaity crap.

Sorry I meant kagi not yagi :)
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