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Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

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Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#161

Post by ponector »

Yizahi wrote: post #124
js8 wrote: post #17

I am not sure what European "leaders" expected. Many of them support Ukraine militarily in the war, so yes, EU is in fact in war with Russia, through Ukraine as a proxy. I oppose the military support to Ukraine. I think it's responsibility of the stronger party, here NATO, to seek deescalation. I also disapprove that the military support for Ukraine was decided undemocratically, without any consideration whether this…

I sincerely hope one day military support will be denied to you, wherever you live. What a brainwashed cabbage... "escalate into a war"(c) - this is a blatant 100% lie, with no ifs or buts, just a plain lie. There was zero military aid to Ukraine before the invasion.

They also are saying West should deescalate by stopping support of Ukraine. Basically to force then to surrender. Likely they missed modern history class, especially "peace for our lifetime" lesson.

I'm not sure they are brainwashed, they could be a salaried russian who has task to spread RT narratives.

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#162

Post by gspetr »

rich_sasha wrote: post #102
chvid wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now the US under Trump is leading the diplomatic efforts toward Russia. I think Europe and the Ukraine would have been better served with European leaders doing this.

Russia has reaffirmed Ukrainian territorial sovereignty in 1990s, after splitting along said boundaries, in return for concessions partly in their favour (Ukrainian nuclear disarmament), then invaded Ukraine. Twice. And that's ignoring tons of smaller violations - some of which are still pretty big. What deal can you make with someone who just doesn't stick to the deals they agree to?

These weren't "concessions", they were very eager: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2024/01/ukraine-nuclear-...

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#163

Post by ponector »

chvid wrote: post #70
askonomm wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a joke, right? Diplomacy is something Russians completely disregard, lie about, and only agree to do when they are the only one benefiting, and even then only until they decide to break whatever agreements were made, because they've done so every single time so far. How do you have any diplomacy with someone like that? You can't.

Right now the US under Trump is leading the diplomatic efforts toward Russia. I think Europe and the Ukraine would have been better served with European leaders doing this.

By leading you mean writing tweets with scary threats and then following usual strategy TACO.

Rolling red carpets for putin is actually undermining EU efforts to isolate Russia. Russian should be welcome only within their allies: Eritrea and North Korea.

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#164

Post by hagbard_c »

internet_points wrote: post #40
CamelCaseName wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they can't. Europe is struggling with soaring energy costs and a lack of alternatives. Whether it's red tape or unfortunate geography, Europe cannot afford to turn off the Russian gas tap. A benevolent US would see this and find ways to bridge the gap for Europe and lower its energy costs, further choking Russia. A less benevolent US would see this and encourage it to continue, weakening both parties and sowin…

A less intelligent US currently encourages the EU to stop investments in wind/solar

Wind and solar can not replace oil and gas without a working energy storage solution which is not feasible for many if not most countries except for those with suitable geography for hydroelectric storage. As it stands now every GW of solar/wind generating capacity needs to be combined with a similar GW of either nuclear or fossil capacity. Especially in the case of nuclear power it does not make sense to build generation capacity and not use it since it is in the planning and building phases that the largest investment lies. Once built a nuclear power plant should run at capacity to recuperate the costs of building and the coming costs of dismantling it. Fossil plants do have relatively high running costs so they are more suitable as backup solutions, especially quick-started gas turbine installations running on natural gas. Of course these power plants need a fuel source which ties their use to all the geopolitical politicking around supply sources, emissions and supposed 'climate impact'.

One good solution would be for wind and solar and other renewable power to be used for the creation of an easily storable fuel which can be used in e.g. gas turbines.

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#165

Post by ponector »

antalis wrote: post #92
aaomidi wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically every superpower.

I don't think Russia is a superpower or that all superpowers act like that. Russia is just a mafia state.

Signs of superpower:

1. Usage of arms introduced 70+ years ago.

2. Assault troops equiped with civil cars and motorcycles.

3. Logistics powered by donkeys.

4. Begging North Korea to help with troops and ammo.

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#166

Post by [deleted] »

js8 wrote: post #119
NicoJuicy wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah. Russia is boxing way beyond it's weight. It will collapse like in 1991 if we would even just put some tanks at the border ( eg. At Finland, Poland). ( Russia's banks are pretty vulnerable atm. )

I don't think so. I have russian coworkers who visited their family in Russia recently. They say there is more investment in infrastructure in Russia since the war. Basically, Russian oligarchs cannot invest abroad so they have to do it at home. So there are signs that the war helped Russia to resolve its "dutch disease" (a situation where a state relying on natural resource such as oil stunts its economic growth in…

[deleted]

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#167

Post by scotty79 »

piskov wrote: post #141
scotty79 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As always: the means, the benefits. How would Russia benefit? Ah, they can't be behind it because they never, ever make mistakes and everything they ever do serves them somehow. In the meantime, in real world russia hasn't made a single good decision in almost 4 years. > Ah, those sweet-sweet frozen assets. Also see how this piece implies Russian without any proof. When you talk about mountain climbing you also sil…

Before you told me that drones were sent intentionally. Now you recede to “mistake” and “not a single good decision”. If you imply some country is stupid and every thing they do is a mistake, that — at very least — is grave mistake for any war.

Is in your mind "intentional" and "mistake" contradictory?

Haven't you ever done anything intentionally that turned out to be a mistake?

It's pretty plain to see that everything russia did in recent years harmed it and strengthened its enemies. That's a mistake in my book unless your goal is a suicide.

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#168

Post by ponector »

tim333 wrote: post #117
ajross wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been literally (not figuratively literally, literally literally) zero diplomatic resolutions of military conflicts or tensions with Russia during the Putin era. None. The closest one you can see, if you squint extremely hard, is the detente of 8 years that that followed the invasion of Crimea. And then we know what happened. Conflicts in Putin's Russia end militarily, always (usually in victory or stalemat…

Negotiated peace can be a thing if there is enough of a threat behind it. I imagine Putin would like to be able to nuke Ukraine but the US have threatened bad things if he does. I think if the west had made more of a threat before the 2022 invasion Putin may well have backed off but Biden was like if you only invade a little bit we won't do much which is kind of how it went.

How nuking Ukraine will help to occupy and control Ukraine? Imagine tomorrow Kyiv is nuked. Troops are still there and now have even more will to fight russians.

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#169

Post by piskov »

scotty79 wrote: post #167
piskov wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before you told me that drones were sent intentionally. Now you recede to “mistake” and “not a single good decision”. If you imply some country is stupid and every thing they do is a mistake, that — at very least — is grave mistake for any war.

Is in your mind "intentional" and "mistake" contradictory? Haven't you ever done anything intentionally that turned out to be a mistake? It's pretty plain to see that everything russia did in recent years harmed it and strengthened its enemies. That's a mistake in my book unless your goal is a suicide.

You do see how the same story looks with shift by one operation?

Enemies getting stronger, russia growing weaker, and finally, trying to do something about it.

It’s like chicken and the egg situation.

The only dumb thing to do is escalate this even further. One should never “corner” the nuclear power, this is madness.

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#170

Post by 1718627440 »

js8 wrote: post #152
1718627440 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had have Russian cyber attacks and terrorist attacks for decades. I don't think we get to decide to not be in war with Russia. Being an weapon source is also different form being in open war. > In fact many military experts agree that Russia doesn't even have military personel to occupy whole Ukraine. Doesn't really matter. Nazi Germany also didn't had the military personnel to occupy Central Europe for a prolonge…

> We had have Russian cyber attacks and terrorist attacks for decades. I am curious what are you referring to. I have read some reporting based on BIS reports and Vrbětice is by far the worst incident (2 dead). > Being an weapon source is also different form being in open war. As long as you can maintain it, perhaps. But did Putin give us an assurance that he will not escalate to an open war? I am not Putin fan, but…

> I am curious what are you referring to.

A lot of cyber attacks in the last decades, stuff like WannaCry, Kaspersky..., Navalny, threats to politicians, espionage for example the recent case about Maximillian Krah, Navalny, bombs in packets that were supposed to be in the air while detonating, drone attacks, purposed limitations in gas supply...

I mean now NATO is discussing responses, but these things aren't exactly new and have been going on for years.

> Russia doesn't have an army to fully occupy Ukraine.

As far as I understand it they are still not really using the official army, since they fear that might have consequences about the stability of the regime.

Also there is an asymmetry as we care about a nation as it's people, but the Russian leadership (it's not only Putin) doesn't feel like that. Troop loss isn't more to them than a number and they have a wast population that they are willing to burn for there own goals.

Ukraine was really underestimated, but I think we underestimate our military ability. We relied to much on the USA and dissolved our armies thinking there will never be another war.

> And idea that you somehow put Russia on their knees and keep them there, for decades

I don't think anybody plans for that.

>> Yes, but why should Americans care?

I don't understand what you want to say, this wasn't about Americans?

> I think there is this mass delusion among Americans that they don't have any colonies, but I think Israel and Gaza shows that's not true.

The USA are/were the major world power, yes they do have influence among the world. But the Israel/Gaza issue is mostly caused by having nationalists on BOTH sides. The other nations on the world also have agency.

> And U.S. have destroyed Middle East with these shenanigans, so I am not happy them applying similar divisive policies to Eastern European countries.

Russia wasn't exactly uninvolved either, but I don't see how Ukraine is that much comparable and EU countries investing in the military is very much the agency of ourselves.

> but I don't see us trying to deescalate, which is the only realistic way to end the war.

This always assumes that Putin has issues that are orthogonal to the war that we can just negotiate. What I perceive to be the case is that they just want territory expansion and control over the run away states of the USSR. The war isn't just a necessary nuisance and a means to the goal, but the goal itself.

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