Live data from Hacker News

Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

theslowburningfuse.wordpress.com

161–170 of 215 posts

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#161
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the UK and listening to people who don't have things like passports, it sounds like it'll make proving your right to work much easier for people, too. I've spoken to friends who have foreign relatives and they've also pointed out the problem the UK has which is: 1. To open a bank account you need an address 2. To rent somewhere (get an address), you need a bank account 3. See above The same happens for children…

In the US you can just tell the bank an address and they will type it in the computer. They make zero effort to verify it. They will even print a piece of paper with that new address on it that you can take down to the DMV and get an ID with that address printed on it. Is this a lot different in the UK?

At the end of the day, somebody has to take your word for it and type it into the computer. The only questions is who has access to the records of which computer to cross-verify them.

The fact that the system is not 100% consistent 100% of the time is a feature, not a bug.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#162
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the UK and listening to people who don't have things like passports, it sounds like it'll make proving your right to work much easier for people, too. I've spoken to friends who have foreign relatives and they've also pointed out the problem the UK has which is: 1. To open a bank account you need an address 2. To rent somewhere (get an address), you need a bank account 3. See above The same happens for children…

In the US you can just tell the bank an address and they will type it in the computer. They make zero effort to verify it. They will even print a piece of paper with that new address on it that you can take down to the DMV and get an ID with that address printed on it. Is this a lot different in the UK?

Some do, some don't. Traditional banks will ask for a proof of address (and only accept a council tax bill, utility bill or rental contract). Some new online banks like Revolut will allow you to get around that step.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the government can already do all that without Digital ID. That's my question with the fear mongering. A hostile government can already link your data from all sorts of places. Digital ID at least helps us for more security. Without Digital ID + Hostile Government you have the worst of both worlds.

"But the government can already do all that without Digital ID." That may be true, but the point is that it makes law enforcement less perfect, and that can be good. That is the point "stavros" is making. Rosa parks broke the law by seating on a seat where she was "not supposed to". Hypothetically, if there were a quick ID check machine on the bus, it could have just prevented the whole thing from happening at all.

There was a "quick check", just not the one based on identity. You can always publicly disagree with the result of the id check too.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main concern here is that it will create a narrow bridge (i.e, the digital ID system) between people and various services and opportunities which will make it an easy target for people who wish to wield power against someone. Perhaps your digital ID is needed to open a bank account, get a phone number, sign up for insurance, etc. Now, suppose some fascist government comes into power. They could start cancelling t…

We already have exactly this right now, without digital ids, it's not even theoretical. The government blocks plenty of residents from aspects of society (eg can't work based on visa rules, can't access public/health services at all without legal residency). Currently that's enforced by random members of e.g. medical staff looking at your skin colour to decide whether to ask to check your physical paperwork before th…

> I think a digital id strictly improves this scenario.

"Improves" does a lot of work here.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your privilege is showing. This is not an argument, and is merely a way to shut someone up because you don't like them disagreeing with you. It is quite a loathsome tactic. > A new passport costs over £100 for a paper application. That can be prohibitive for people. I agree that it is expensive. However you don't require a passport though and you can use a Birth Certificate and something that shows your NI number .…

> This is not an argument, and is merely a way to shut someone up because you don't like them disagreeing with you. It is quite a loathsome tactic. Ok, let me break the argument down for you: 1. Person needs job 2. Person doesn't have job 3. Person therefore is low on money 4. Person needs to prove right to work to get job 5. Person needs money to buy proof of right to work (+ time to receive it) 6. Person needs mone…

I understand this process that you outline can conceivable happen. However this scenarios is still extremely unlikely. Firstly the cost of a replacement Birth certificate is low.

Failing that, there are other support mechanism in place provided by charities, family, friends and even the state itself, in the unlikely event they are that are completely destitute.

None of this says anything about whether I am privileged or not. You know nothing about my personal circumstances or family background. The only reason anyone uses this line of argument is an attempt to shut people up or as a shaming tactic. Neither of which will work with me.

It also doesn't make any of the checks "excessive". It merely means that they may cost a relatively small amount of money.

As for the ability to produce basic documents, there is nothing privileged about being able to produce basic documents. What you are showing is simply a "bigotry of low expectations".

> Read it again: they're skipping the checks and just using the one they know (passport) because they don't know if other legal forms of documentation are good enough. I know this is going to blow your mind but plenty of employers have no idea what the laws are. You might say "well that's on the employer," but it's the person who needs the job who suffers.

I read it fine the first time thank you.

What you are describing now I would imagine is discriminatory and thus illegal. However IANAL. In this scenario the problem is with the potential employer in this circumstance. That isn't a problem with the right to work checks, and is a problem with the employer.

TBH. It really feels as if you are inventing reasons why right to work checks should be considered "excessive" to shoehorn in your own personal politics.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#166
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in the UK, the government wants: * ID checks for social media (to protect children) * A digital ID card, allowing ID check records to be provably linked to the original ID document (to prevent illegal working) * The police arresting people for posting unfashionable takes on human sexuality to social media And even if you trust the current government, there are very real fears the next government will be Trump-ad…

> The police arresting people for posting unfashionable takes on human sexuality to social media When you look into these cases, they always turn out to be "a sustained campaign of harassment and abuse against one or more named individuals". It took years for even Glinner to finally cross that line and get his collar felt.

For the most part it doesn't go as far as the arrest but it gives the right for police to do "a sustained campaign of harassment and abuse against one or more named individuals" because their kids are posting unpopular memes on social media

UK is in big trouble, it's a naughty nanny state

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can it be used without a smartphone aka "portable telescreen"? Do they explicitly guarantee this'll remain the case? If not, you're just being hoodwinked via cheap convenience.

In Denmark a similar system (NemID) gave you a piece of paper with long alphanumeric codes to be used instead of the app. Now it's replaced by another system (MitID) which I haven't verified that supports those, but it's highly unlikely that it stopped supporting physical codes. It's actually quite a good idea to have this, even if you have a smartphone, in case that you lose access to it temporarily.

I don’t think MitID supports physical analog codes, but they have these for people that don’t want to rely on smartphones: https://www.mitid.dk/en-gb/get-started-with-mitid/how-to-use...

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is what digital IDs usually do: the website requests the smallest amount of information they need, you decide to grant it, and only that gets sent. And at least in my country you also have a physical card, so if you really don't want to grant anything via the internet (or find their request is too broad) you can just do whatever process it is in person.

What if sites start to request more information than they need because why not? If you don't give it, you don't get access, and you want access. What incentive do they have for requesting less information?

Asking for more information than required will cause people to stop using the website, hurting revenue.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#169
post #166
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The police arresting people for posting unfashionable takes on human sexuality to social media When you look into these cases, they always turn out to be "a sustained campaign of harassment and abuse against one or more named individuals". It took years for even Glinner to finally cross that line and get his collar felt.

For the most part it doesn't go as far as the arrest but it gives the right for police to do "a sustained campaign of harassment and abuse against one or more named individuals" because their kids are posting unpopular memes on social media UK is in big trouble, it's a naughty nanny state

> because their kids are posting unpopular memes on social media

I can't work out what this is supposed to refer to? Is this supposed to coexist with the "parents have complete responsibility for their kid's internet usage" from the Online Safety Act discourse?

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, all the scaremongering is hilarious. As if a digital ID is what is going to be used to repress the common (wo)man. News flash, if your "liberal western government" wanted to they have more than enough tools to do it already. See all the repressive governments with institutions stuck in the 60s. - Don't trust corporations that you have no control over. - Vote wisely for the government you do have some control…

In the same breath you mention repressive governments and how you have control over governments. Which one is it?

Depends which sort of government you live under obviously. Luckily in the UK we do have control over our government.

If people got off the internet they might realise they have all the tools needed to make their country a better place.

Post reply on HN