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Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

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Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#161

Post by lawn »

andrewjf wrote: post #10

I have two moonlanders but wound up giving up because I just couldn't adapt to it. And when writing code, finding the symbols like {, =, }, and other common coding ones was just too difficult to retain muscle memory. I tried many layouts, I tried to make my own, and at the end of the day it was just too different. I wish I had a better experience. Any recommendations?

Yes, you simply need more practice.

Keyboards, layouts etc won't matter as you'll have the same difficulties you're feeling now, no matter what you choose.

Practice and patience, that is the cure.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#162

Post by ryangibb »

Given the website, is worth noting that keyboards like this can avoid the infamous Emacs pinky. I've got the keys two rows below the homerow bound to the modifiers right alt, super, alt, control, and shift. And reversed on the other hand. This makes any modifier shortcuts very ergonomic -- one hand 'chords' the modifiers and the other hits the non-modifier key.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#163

Post by 2716057 »

lrem wrote: post #142
wulfstan wrote: post #118

OPs experience working their way up the keyboard stack is very similar to my own. I settled on the Dygma Raise. I now own one of the Raise and Raise 2. Yes, they are a lot of money. I don’t have time to game any more, and they clearly focus mainly on gamers. But if you’re a software / IT person your wrists are your livelihood, so for goodness sakes invest in them. There is no silver bullet and you will probably have…

If only this had the F key row. Why is "fewer keys" the first decision that every fancy keyboard designer starts with :/

Because the fancy keyboards all support layers, and one key ergonomic principle is to avoid unnecessary finger travel ;)

Default layers on the Dygma Raise 2: https://dygma.com/pages/first-time-using-the-dygma-raise-2

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#164

Post by rollcat »

npstr wrote: post #155

I had some RSI at the start of corona from too much home office + gaming, what actually helped was getting a trackball (Kensington Slimblade Pro) for $work tasks. Tried a Moonlander and hated it. My hands don't work with ortholinear. And I hated having to learn layers and layouts. Besides I have a real job and I use a proper IDE so I need my F keys, I like to use the Home/End/Page Up+Down keys, I learned to use the n…

Context: I've been daily driving an Ergodox since 2019.

> And I hated having to learn layers and layouts. Besides I have a real job and I use a proper IDE so I need my F keys, I like to use the Home/End/Page Up+Down keys, I learned to use the numpad efficiently, etc.

Personally, I find that a layer key is little different from a standard modifier key such as Cmd, Alt, etc. Yep, it's one more thing to learn, but IMHO it's worth learning: on macOS, you can use Cmd+arrow to move around text pretty much the same way H/E/Pu/Pd works, but with Mod+arrow, you can just transfer this muscle memory to other systems.

I agree with the lack of F-keys, this is a stupid trend that caught early on, and now no designer seems to be willing to challenge it. I have a different reason though (I prefer Cmd+R or similar to Recompile/Run/etc), and it's games. This is my StarCraft 2 layout: https://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8b8dcd36c0abc...>

SC2 is insanely demanding on your raw mechanics, and adding a layer is unquestionably a Bad Idea. For many commands (production, upgrades, some spells), modal input is hardcoded into the engine.

The layout I built is much more optimized than standard hotkeys, but the lack of F-keys is brutal and hindering (esp. for Zerg). Regardless, I've improved A LOT with this layout - which makes me think, how you make it work for you is more important than the shape of it.

> I'm working with comfortable 30-40 wpm and am still one of the most prolific and productive engineers at $work, typing speed is not important for many jobs.

The design goal was never to increase speed (that's mostly mechanics), but to allow a more comfortable posture.

> I would like to continue be able to use regular keyboards efficiently and with little annoyance. Too often I'm traveling and stuck with the laptop keyboard.

Again subjective, but I have zero problems switching between ortholinear and staggered.

> Use defaults.

Disagree (: most defaults suck. Best case, they're opinionated but thoughtful. A consensus is a compromise - always questionable. Worst: "we're now just stuck with it". These all suck, because they're someone else's opinion. And it's in your right to disagree.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#165

Post by rollcat »

kstrauser wrote: post #99
Twey wrote: post #73

> proponents of mechanical keyboards say you need fewer keys than a regular keyboard, for _reasons_ That's a bit of a generalization. Mechanical keyboards like the Hyper7 exist that have enough for even the most key-hungry typist. If you want an ergonomic mechanical keyboard with many keys there are also some of those out there, like the Kinesis line or the Glove80. That said, one thing people mean by ‘ergonomic’ is…

My parents sent me to years of piano lessons before I ever touched a computer keyboard, and my typing reflects it. I don't move my wrist. I move my entire hand. This drove my high school typing teacher nuts, but I was the fastest in class by a wide margin so he didn't push back too hard. I've tried traditional home-row typing but I just can't do it. And after all these years, my wrists still don't hurt at all. I can'…

> This drove my high school typing teacher nuts [...]

I think that's typical for over-achievers.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#166

Post by VladVladikoff »

DanHulton wrote: post #79
Jcampuzano2 wrote: post #8

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

As an FYI, I had a similar issue and tried a whole lot of things, including different mechanical keyboards, with which I had a variety of successes and failures. But ultimately what REALLY helped was going to physiotherapy and identifying muscle groups in my back that were weak, causing me to sit weird and support my arms with muscles in my shoulders that weren't designed for that. And because all of this is connecte…

Lifting weights cured a lot of my wrist pain. Then I started training jiujitsu, now I have full body pain all the time.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#167

Post by rollcat »

mewse-hn wrote: post #87
Twey wrote: post #73

> proponents of mechanical keyboards say you need fewer keys than a regular keyboard, for _reasons_ That's a bit of a generalization. Mechanical keyboards like the Hyper7 exist that have enough for even the most key-hungry typist. If you want an ergonomic mechanical keyboard with many keys there are also some of those out there, like the Kinesis line or the Glove80. That said, one thing people mean by ‘ergonomic’ is…

I'm a mech keyboard enthusiast and an ansi 104 full size ride-or-die > (Because subcultures are subdivided recursively, the _gaming_ mechanical keyboard subcrowd also often like small keyboards, for reasons I don't really know but are presumably quite different from the reasons the ergonomic mechanical keyboard subcrowd have.) The explanation I've always heard for TKL for gamers is that removing the numpad leaves mor…

Many popular games are physically and mentally demanding. You do need "vigorous, professional mousing" for any kind of shooter or RTS, on top of actual thinking and reacting.

Playing in teams requires you to type to coordinate with teammates. The language floats from cryptic to hectic: all sorts of acronyms, jargon, combining text with "body language", etc. Regardless, typing with both hands is still faster.

You can also buy a detachable numpad.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#168

Post by Xss3 »

rswail wrote: post #139
bostik wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keychron? I realise their prebuilt variants may have ISO layouts only for the various EU market segments, but they all run QMK so you could reflash with en-US keymap. They come with a set of replacement Mac/Win keycaps already, and have a physical switch to flip between the two variants. Then reshuffle the physical keycaps to match your layout. (Disclosure: I have two of their ISO keyboards: Q10 and Q11. Both require…

The keychron K10 max seems closest to what I want and has the keytops I want (with a bit of rearranging). The UK keytops are the closest to what I want, I already use Karabiner to swap a few things, so that's probably the closest. Just need to be able to get blue switches, I WFH and there's no one around to be bothered by the clicking. Considering I started "typing" on an ASR-33, and then an original IBM PC, I want t…

Pretty sure the switches are hot swappable.

There are also many more types than just regular cherry mx blue nowadays if you want clicky.

My advice would be to buy some clicky switch samples from somewhere like this; https://mechbox.co.uk/collections/switches-singles

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#169

Post by akdor1154 »

atoav wrote: post #149
Jcampuzano2 wrote: post #8

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

Having been extensively on computers for the past 25 years and I have never experienced the whole keyboard-/mouse-pain thing even in the slightest on myself. I know many collegues who did tho. I wonder whether this has to do with me being a bass and guitar player. Playing an instrument where you essentially press down thick steel wires with your finger tips with full force, while your fingers are in odd angled ("unhe…

Similar experience (no rsi, 35, shit tier typing technique, bassist + pianist), same theory. Go get them fingers jacked!

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#170

Post by marcusb »

fleekonpoint wrote: post #119

Not sure if the author is reading these comments but if you like the Moonlander but don’t like how the thumb cluster is tied to the tenting angle, I strongly recommend their ZSA tenting solution. It makes the whole thing a lot sturdier but more importantly it lets you adjust the tenting angle independently from the thumb cluster angle. You can also probably find used ones online. I know you mention it already in the…

For anyone curious about this, the tenting solution is available here[0].

I wrote about it in my review of the Moonlander[1]. In short, in addition to much more stable angle adjustment, you get an additional 46 degrees of adjustment (11 degrees with the tent legs vs 57 degrees with the platform kit.)

It does tend to slide around a bit on a smooth desk, but I solved that with some rubber matting glued to the bottom.

0 - https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/platform

1 - https://marcusb.org/posts/2025/08/two-years-with-the-zsa-moo...

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