well, manipulation is more about intent, rather than technique... I think it doesn't matter if you chose the correct "door" if you're trying to get someone to operate against their own interests.
How can I influence others without manipulating them?
161–170 of 232 posts
Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You have a moral duty to not lie but also a moral duty to resist tyranny. You cannot sacrifice one to achieve the other, you must choose only options that fulfill both duties. The universe doesn't respect that viewpoint. There is no mechanism in reality or life that prevents hard tradeoffs from having to be made.
> The universe doesn't respect that viewpoint. There is no mechanism in reality or life that prevents hard tradeoffs from having to be made. What the universe does or doesn't respect has no bearing on what is or is not right / good.
Are you role playing in a fictional world? Where you can make up whatever ideals you want, and make them happen. Then I am for nobody ever suffering injustice.
That would be good and right, indeed.
Or, making actual choices in reality? Where there are limits to what we can do, but making hard choices well has positive impact.
I am speaking to the latter.
Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, I disagree. Not all differences need resolving. Mature adults should learn to respect those differences. It doesn’t mean you have to change your worldview to get along. This is not about how tight or loose your convictions are, but rather how much empathy and grace you’re willing to grant to others. I can vehemently disagree with you while also seeking to understand and love you. Mischaracterizing strong and, yes…
> And the freedom to prioritize what is worth going down a rabbit hole for, in their life.
I’m not actually so sure that we disagree as much as I originally said. A better way for me to phrase it would have been: there is nothing wrong with certain unswayable convictions. But others can be very problematic.
That said, the point I want to make more is that both of these exist whether we like it or not. So rather than saying there’s no place for those strong convictions I disagree with, it is better to understand and empathize than to debate. That doesn’t mean changing my convictions necessarily. But it does mean I should treat others well regardless of how I think of them. This is the true meaning of “love thy neighbor”. And It is a shame more people who quote such scriptures don’t exercise them.
Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?
#164People will do anything for those who encourage their dreams, justify their failures, allay their fears, confirm their suspicions and help them throw rocks at their enemies. -- Blair Warren
I see a lot of whitewashing of Charlie Kirk on social media at the moment that this quote reminds me of. The guy made a killing from speaking hate and then he got killed by hate himself. Like the guy that's always in the jurassic park movies, that doesn't think letting the t-rex out will be much of a problem, and then he get's killed by the t-rex and everyone else needs to deal with the t-rex of hate and far wingism…
I didn't know Charlie Krik before. After watching these videos, I don't believe he was such a hateful person:
Amir Odom: https://youtu.be/N14ywRyTWVI
Bill Maher: https://youtu.be/OblCcO7-Alg
Jordan Peterson: https://youtu.be/dP0TagcNvCg
Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
Does the alcoholic dad who wont stop drinking have integrity? His core principles say he shouldn't back down; he's not a quitter after all. Silly example, but I find arguments fall apart most at the edges. I challenge you to develop a better definition of integrity. For me, integrity means I will change my mind when presented with convincing data.
The problem there though is that data completely breaks down for anything historical, philosophical, cultural, religious, miraculous, or otherwise requiring “faith.” Anything that is not a repeatable event under a microscope has no “data” and never will.
To explain why your comment was received poorly: they're talking about integrity & you somewhat randomly brought in faith
Changing your mind given data isn't going to apply when there's no data to go by, so this concept of integrity isn't related to faith
Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
"The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. " Well, the earth you walk is indisputable flat. That all of earth is round, comes not from direct observation (except for the very few people who have been in space). So I dare you to actually argue with flat earthers. It is a good way to test your basic scientific knowledge. If you poke deep, you will find, that most people learned science the way people learned re…
The thing about this particular topic is that humanity has known this fact for millennia, not because we flew or went to space, but because we sailed. Any human who has watched ships come in to a harbor would be able to trivially tell you: We see the masts before the ship. Where I grew up you can stand by the shore on a clear day and see the tree tops on the neighboring island, but not the beach. Sailing there, the b…
Greeks calculated the circumference of the world based on the shadows of obelisks. Parallax was used to calculate how far the moon was, & from that how large
(people didn't think Columbus would fall off the edge of the world, they thought he wouldn't make it to India, which to be fair, if it was only ocean between the Pacific & Atlantic, him & his crew most definitely would've perished)
Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am not a "data or it didn't happen" person. I am sure I have magical beliefs that don't play out in reality. I'm not convinced by the argument that this falls apart for your categories. Logic and reasoning still exists. Philosophy can be argued and principals agreed upon. Historical things leave traces. And I am appalled by blind faith. At some point, our society and ways of doing things boils down to trust or fait…
I used to look at things this way too, but I now see this picture as incomplete, missing a crucial detail. There exist another dimension to our reality, beyond the inanimate, objective one we normally study through physics and life sciences. That dimension is the social dimension. It has its own rules, and for everyone at almost all times, it's more directly relevant to survival and happiness than actual physics. An…
In a world where there is no way of knowing whether my blue is the same as your blue, can there be a way to be objectively right about the colour of the sky?
Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?
#168The form of the question has assumptions that are broken. The action of manipulating people is fairly obvious. It means you have a predetermined outcome that you want other people to accept The same assumption is implicit in the "How can I influence others..." Again there is the same predetermined outcome. The answer then is obvious. You cannot. Perhaps what you are looking for is instead a way to join with other peo…
I think "manipulation" implies sneakiness, not just influencing somebody. If I tell you that I disagree with your comment, and me saying that is enough to change your mind, then I have influenced you but not manipulated you because I've done nothing but tell you my honest opinion with no unannounced motives.
What I was trying to get at was the concept of mutual benefit in thinking. For example, my thinking is better because of your comment. If we want to think together - create some good thought then the focus is on understanding, not influencing or manipulating.
But yes, you can and did influence me. Or perhaps more accurately, your thinking about this helped me think about it better and more clearly. Thanks!
Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?
#169Someone once told me the only way to influence is to let yourself be influenced. You have to open up to the other person / other side or nothing will move
And you never control how the influence works exactly :). You influence others in ways you won't be able to control or predict.
Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?
#170Persuasion that happens in good faith is a two-way street. You explain your position, but also truly listen to theirs. If you are prepared to change your own position based on what they say, then you can hope that they might change theirs based on what you say. If it is truly two way in this sense, including your best efforts to extract from the other party their strongest, potentially unexpected, arguments for their…
This is fine when the question is, “What’s for dinner?” However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. It’s important to understand where these lines fall within yourself and those you are speaking with. Some arguments aren’t worth having in an effort to persuade, but rather they should be discussions aimed at understanding, being vulnerable…
> However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity.
I see what you're saying but I think this is called obstinance...