Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery • Hacker News Board

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#161

Post by bslaq » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 5:39 PM UTC

Rebelgecko wrote: post #160

bslaq wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Posting a comment doubting the ROI of a public investment is not “authoritarian populism”. If anything, democracy needs more of it.

The problem is when it's based on bullshit, like the secretary of energy's recent claims that completely covering the earth in solar panels wouldn't be enough energy for our needs. Like his hypothetical Dyson sphere of solar panels, a lie on Twitter can make it around the world before the truth can catch up.

The problem is this is Finland and whatever the secretary of energy of the USA says is completely irrelevant.

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#162

Post by Sharlin » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 6:59 PM UTC

jnsaff2 wrote: post #145

Sharlin wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point is that the thermal energy is used directly, via district heating. These are not meant to store energy for electricity production (though they could do that if really needed – emergency power for various facilities? Maybe not worth it compared to diesel.) Heat from existing thermal power plants can be stored directly and later distributed with no conversion loss; excess electricity from renewables can…

The link in the OP comment is however talking about electricity generation (not excluding heat use tho) and energy being stored from excess PV.

Ah, sorry, missed the context.

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#163

Post by dzhiurgis » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 7:58 PM UTC

myrmidon wrote: post #39

dzhiurgis wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can't really do -600C sand (or anything) You can if you stagger AC/HP or even peltier elements.

You misunderstood-- temperature is physically limited to -273°C, this is not an engineering problem. You have a smaller usable temperature range in a "cold storage" than with heat from fundamental physics alone.

Damn you got me there!

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#164

Post by ponector » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 8:23 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #153

kragen wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to get really solid estimates for solar costs because they've been dropping so precipitously, and because they depend on so many ancillary factors: wiring, inspections, permitting, power electronics, storage, and so on. Getting solid estimates for solar return on investment is even harder, because it depends on the future price of energy.

Yes, it's certainly possible that Iceland is better for solar than Finland not because of its sunlight, but because of those myriad extra factors.

I'm sure there is no sense in solar energy in Iceland due to strong winds there as well as geothermal energy.

It's sad they are building gas-powered data centers in US instead of powered by renewables in Iceland.

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#165

Post by danielfoster » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 8:47 PM UTC

kragen wrote: post #96

arowthway wrote: post #50

This is super cool but the ending is bizarre. > A comment on the YouTube video below complained, “Not a word about return on investment in the presentation. That means it’ll never pay off” MAGAlomaniacs are everywhere these days. Given the supposed 50+ year lifespan of such a battery, I find it hard to believe it doesn't turn a profit at some point. And I understand that debunking low-effort accusations is asymmetric…

If, say, further insulating your house or building a sand battery will pay for itself in 50 years, it's a bad investment, financially speaking, and probably environmentally speaking as well. You can deploy "the same amount" of resources in something else with a higher ROI, like maybe solar panels with a one -year payback, and get a much bigger benefit. This is an important consideration as long as you are constrained…

I agree with you, but one point I see everyone missing is the fact that this is a first-time installation of a new technology that hasn’t scaled. There needs to be a business plan of course. At the same time, no one would expect to see ROI figures for the first build of a concept car.

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#166

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 9:55 PM UTC

danielfoster wrote: post #165

kragen wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If, say, further insulating your house or building a sand battery will pay for itself in 50 years, it's a bad investment, financially speaking, and probably environmentally speaking as well. You can deploy "the same amount" of resources in something else with a higher ROI, like maybe solar panels with a one -year payback, and get a much bigger benefit. This is an important consideration as long as you are constrained…

I agree with you, but one point I see everyone missing is the fact that this is a first-time installation of a new technology that hasn’t scaled. There needs to be a business plan of course. At the same time, no one would expect to see ROI figures for the first build of a concept car.

[deleted]

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#167

Post by kragen » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 9:56 PM UTC

ponector wrote: post #164

bryanlarsen wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's certainly possible that Iceland is better for solar than Finland not because of its sunlight, but because of those myriad extra factors.

I'm sure there is no sense in solar energy in Iceland due to strong winds there as well as geothermal energy. It's sad they are building gas-powered data centers in US instead of powered by renewables in Iceland.

Windmills can be surprisingly expensive. https://www.eia.gov/analysis/studies/powerplants/capitalcost... is not up-to-date, but I think the windmill prices in it have changed a lot less than the solar prices; the 200 MW onshore project they price out there comes to US$1265/kW (US$1.27/W), of which something like 61% is the windmills themselves. Low-cost photovoltaic solar modules currently cost €0.055/W (US$0.065/W), lower by more than an order of magnitude https://www.solarserver.de/photovoltaik-preis-pv-modul-preis....

So, at equal cost, the alternative to a megawatt of windmills may not be a megawatt of solar panels, but 10 megawatts of solar panels. And that can compensate for their lower capacity factor.

I don't think people are building gas-powered data centers in the US. There's a data center crunch in the US because people aren't building them because they can't get the power because of the US's anti-renewable-energy policies.

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#168

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 10:35 PM UTC

danielfoster wrote: post #165

kragen wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If, say, further insulating your house or building a sand battery will pay for itself in 50 years, it's a bad investment, financially speaking, and probably environmentally speaking as well. You can deploy "the same amount" of resources in something else with a higher ROI, like maybe solar panels with a one -year payback, and get a much bigger benefit. This is an important consideration as long as you are constrained…

I agree with you, but one point I see everyone missing is the fact that this is a first-time installation of a new technology that hasn’t scaled. There needs to be a business plan of course. At the same time, no one would expect to see ROI figures for the first build of a concept car.

[deleted]

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#169

Post by kragen » Wed, Sep 03, 2025, 11:06 PM UTC

danielfoster wrote: post #165

kragen wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If, say, further insulating your house or building a sand battery will pay for itself in 50 years, it's a bad investment, financially speaking, and probably environmentally speaking as well. You can deploy "the same amount" of resources in something else with a higher ROI, like maybe solar panels with a one -year payback, and get a much bigger benefit. This is an important consideration as long as you are constrained…

I agree with you, but one point I see everyone missing is the fact that this is a first-time installation of a new technology that hasn’t scaled. There needs to be a business plan of course. At the same time, no one would expect to see ROI figures for the first build of a concept car.

That's because concept cars aren't investments. This project is an investment. Investors invest in investments to get a return on their investment (ROI). Car buyers, other than car dealers and outfits like Budget Rent-A-Car, do not buy cars to get ROI. Advertising an investment without publishing any projected ROI figures (the business plan you mention) is like advertising a concept car without publishing any photos, video, or drawings.

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#170

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 04, 2025, 3:08 AM UTC

jagermo wrote: post #146

arowthway wrote: post #50

This is super cool but the ending is bizarre. > A comment on the YouTube video below complained, “Not a word about return on investment in the presentation. That means it’ll never pay off” MAGAlomaniacs are everywhere these days. Given the supposed 50+ year lifespan of such a battery, I find it hard to believe it doesn't turn a profit at some point. And I understand that debunking low-effort accusations is asymmetric…

I find it fascinating that renewables always have to have a ROI. nobody cares about his car loosing value as soon as you drive off the parking lot. Or any other appliance - a fridge will never have a ROI, a washing machine will not and neither will a stove, a macbook or a fancy smart home system. They are part of our live, loose value and we accept that. But solar or batteries (granted, mostly with home-solutions)? B…

[deleted]