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God created the real numbers

ethanheilman.com

161–170 of 226 posts

Re: God created the real numbers

#161
post #158

Theory of Computation wasn't around when all this "exciting" stuff was developed in Mathematics. Given their non-constructive nature "real" numbers are unsurprisingly totally incompatible with computation. Chaitin has a great paper on this and shows how Cantor's constructions were reflected a half-century later by Turing. https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0411418 Except of-course, while "hyper-Turing" machines that can do m…

> Given their non-constructive nature "real" numbers are unsurprisingly totally incompatible with computation.

It is funny you say that when Turing defined Turing machines to compute real numbers (like π for example). In its original definition, a number was computable if its Turing machine did not stop. Which makes sense since π does not have a finite decimal expansion.

Today, we usually define Turing machines to decide problems and a problem is decidable if for every input its Turing machine stops with a ``yes'' or ``no'' answer. I guess this is what makes people think what you said in the quote above. Maybe this definition is more intuitive but this conclusion from it could not be more wrong.

Think about it for a second, if the computable numbers were countable there would be no uncomputable problem (Turing actually used the classic cantor diagonal argument to prove that there were uncomputable numbers)

Re: God created the real numbers

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't do rigorous calculus (i.e. real analysis) on rationals alone. Yep, but that wasn't my point. My point was that it is possible that all values in our universe are rational, and it wouldn't be possible for us to tell the difference between this and a universe that has irrational numbers. This fact feels pretty cursed, so I wanted to point it out.

You can make this statement for any dense subset of the reals, but we don’t because that would be silly. I think the conceit is supposed to be that analysis—and therefore the reals—is the “language of nature” more so than that we can actually find the reals using scientific instruments. To illustrate the point, using the rationals is just one way of constructing the reals. Try arguing that numbers with a finite decim…

I think it makes much more sense to make this statement for the rational numbers: It's the smallest field inside the real numbers that contains the naturals.

So every subset that allows you to do your daily calculations contains the rationals.

Re: God created the real numbers

#163
post #110
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but work, time and space are continuous I'm under the impression that all our theories of time and space (and thus work) break down at the scale of 1 plank unit and smaller. Which isn't proof that they aren't continuous, but I don't see how you could assert that they are either.

Matter and energy are discrete. The continuity or discreteness of time and space are unknown. There are arguments for both cases, but nobody really knows for sure. It’s fairly easy to go from integers to many subsets of the reals (rationals are straightforward, constructible numbers not too hard, algebraic numbers more of a challenge), but the idea that the reals are, well real, depends on a continuity of spacetime t…

Energy is continuous, not discrete.

Because energy is action per time, it inherits the continuity of time. Action is also continuous, though its nature is much less well understood. (Many people make confusions between action and angular momentum, speaking about a "quantum of action". There is no such thing as a quantum of action, because action is a quantity that increases monotonically in time for any physical system, so it cannot have constant values, much less quantized values. Angular momentum, which is the ratio of action per phase in a rotation motion, is frequently a constant quantity and a quantized quantity. In more than 99% of the cases when people write Planck's constant, they mean an angular momentum, but there are also a few cases when people write Planck's constant meaning an action, typically in relation with some magnetic fluxes, e.g. in the formula of the magnetic flux quantum.)

Perhaps when you said that energy is discrete you thought about light being discrete, but light is not energy. Energy is a property of light, like also momentum, frequency, wavenumber and others.

Moreover, the nature of the photon is still debated. Some people are not convinced yet that light travels in discrete packets, instead of the alternative where only the exchange of energy and momentum between light and electrons or other leptons and quarks is quantized.

There are certain stationary systems, like isolated atoms or molecules, which may have a discrete set of states, where each state has a certain energy.

Unlike for a discrete quantity like the electric charge, such sets of energy values can contain arbitrary values of energy and between the sets of different systems there are no rational relationships between the energy values. Moreover, all such systems have not only discrete energy values but also continuous intervals of possible energies, usually towards higher energies, e.g. corresponding to high temperatures or to the ionization of atoms or molecules.

Re: God created the real numbers

#164
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know it wouldn't be possible for us to tell the difference between a rational universe (one where all quantities are rational numbers) and a real universe (one where you can have irrational quantities). The standard construction for the real numbers is to start with the rationals and "fill in all the holes". So why even bother with filling in the holes and instead just declare God created the rationals?

Because the square root of 2 exists.

How does it exist though? Does it exist because we have a notation for it, or because we know its definition? Does the number 2 itself even exist? What does it mean to say that the number 2 exists?

Calculo, ergo sum?

Re: God created the real numbers

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What we know is that we use mathematical models based on the continuity of work, time and space (and on the discreteness of matter and electricity) and until now we have not seen any experiment where a discrepancy between predicted and measured values could be attributed to the falseness of the supposition that work, time and space are continuous. Obviously this does not exclude the possibility that in the future som…

Umm SpaceTime is likely NOT to be fundamental or continuous https://youtu.be/GL77oOnrPzY?si=nllkY_E8WotARwUM Also Bells Therom implies no locality or non realism which to me furthers the nail on the coffin of spacetime

That presentation is like all the research that has been published in this domain, i.e. it presents some ideas that might be used to build an alternative theory of space-time, but no such actual theories.

There are already several decades of such discussions, but no usable results.

Time and space are primitive quantities in any current theory of physics, i.e. quantities that are assumed to exist and have certain properties, and which are used to define derived quantities.

Any alternative theory must start by enumerating exactly which are its primitive quantities and which are their properties. Anything else is just gibberish, not better than Star Trek talk.

However, the units of measurement for time and length are not fundamental units a.k.a. base units, because it is impossible to make any physical system characterized by values of time or length that are stable enough and reproducible enough.

Because of that, the units of time and length are derived from fundamental units that are units of some derived quantities, currently from the units of work and velocity (i.e. the unit of work is the work required to transition a certain atom, currently cesium 133, from a certain state to a certain other state, i.e. which is equal to the difference between the energies of the 2 states, while the unit of velocity is the velocity of light in vacuum).

Re: God created the real numbers

#166
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matter and energy are discrete. The continuity or discreteness of time and space are unknown. There are arguments for both cases, but nobody really knows for sure. It’s fairly easy to go from integers to many subsets of the reals (rationals are straightforward, constructible numbers not too hard, algebraic numbers more of a challenge), but the idea that the reals are, well real, depends on a continuity of spacetime t…

Energy is continuous, not discrete. Because energy is action per time, it inherits the continuity of time. Action is also continuous, though its nature is much less well understood. (Many people make confusions between action and angular momentum, speaking about a "quantum of action". There is no such thing as a quantum of action, because action is a quantity that increases monotonically in time for any physical syst…

[deleted]

Re: God created the real numbers

#167
post #161
post #158

Theory of Computation wasn't around when all this "exciting" stuff was developed in Mathematics. Given their non-constructive nature "real" numbers are unsurprisingly totally incompatible with computation. Chaitin has a great paper on this and shows how Cantor's constructions were reflected a half-century later by Turing. https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0411418 Except of-course, while "hyper-Turing" machines that can do m…

> Given their non-constructive nature "real" numbers are unsurprisingly totally incompatible with computation. It is funny you say that when Turing defined Turing machines to compute real numbers (like π for example). In its original definition, a number was computable if its Turing machine did not stop. Which makes sense since π does not have a finite decimal expansion. Today, we usually define Turing machines to de…

The set of computable numbers is actually countable (see ref. linked above). It has to be by definition because the set of finite computer-programs is itself countable.

This is the whole point of the un-reality of "real" numbers: "all" of it (= measure 1) is uncomputable except a "tiny" measure-0 set.

Re: God created the real numbers

#168

All math is just a system of ideas, specifically rules that people made up and follow because it's useful. I'm so used to thinking this way that I don't understand what all the fuss is about, mathematical objects being "real". Ideas are real but they're not real in the way that rocks are. Whenever there's a mysterious pattern in nature, people have felt the need to assert that some immaterial "thing" makes it so. But…

You're doing the exact thing that makes up what the fuss is about: arguing over what is "real" without defining what "real" means.

Let's all take a minute to ask ourselves what we mean by "real" every time we use that word. It may be that everyone's talking about a different thing.

Re: God created the real numbers

#169

God created the rational numbers. The universe requires infinite divisibility, i.e. a dense set. It doesn't require infinite precision, i.e. a complete set. Our equations for the universe require a complete set, but that would be confusing the map with the territory. There is no physical evidence for uncountable infinities, those are purely in the imagination of man.

> The universe [...] doesn't require infinite precision,

Doesn't it though?

What happens when three bodies in a gravitationally bound system orbit each other? Our computers can't precisely compute their interaction because our computers have limited precision and discrete timesteps. Even when we discard such complicated things as relativity, what with its Lorentz factors and whatnot.

Nature can perfectly compute their interactions because it has smooth time and infinite precision.

Re: God created the real numbers

#170
post #159
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take a unit square. It's diagonal is a real number but not rational.

OK, but surely only because the exact value of 1 exists in the first place.

My first thought on reading your comment was to disagree and say no, we can have the exact value of 1, because we can choose our system of units and so we can make the square a unit square by fiat.

A better way to dispute the unit square diagonal argument for the existence of sqrt(2) would be to argue that squares themselves are unphysical, since all measurements are imprecise and so we can't be sure that any two physical lengths or angles are exactly the same.

But actually, this argument can also be applied to 1 and other discrete quantities. Sure, if I choose the length of some specific ruler as my unit length, then I can be sure that ruler has length 1. But if I look at any other object in the world, I can never say that other object has length exactly 1, due to the imprecision of measurements. Which makes this concept of "length exactly 1" rather limited in usefulness---in that sense, it would be fair to say the exact value of 1 doesn't exist.

Overall I think 1, and the other integers, and even rational numbers via the argument of AIPendant about egg cartons, are straightforwardly physically real as measurements of discrete quantities, but for measurements of continuous quantities I think the argument about the unit square diagonal works to show that rational numbers are no more and no less physically real than sqrt(2).

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