Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just because something works for you to lead a normal life doesn’t mean it works for everyone.
What the DSM defines as normal is far too narrow and we're too eager for quick fixes without discomfort or discipline.
Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)
161–170 of 225 posts
Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Why do you presume I'm neurotypical and undiagnosed with any psychiatric disorder? Because you talk like one, with no apparent empathy for the neurodiverse, except perhaps people with profound issues. "We shouldn't treat any problems except the catastrophically bad." Gross. > I bet if you knew your house would burn down if you didn't do "normal" things you would have done them no problem. This is not arguing in fav…
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Have you ever considered that the things which you find doable or even trivial might be incomprehensibly more difficult for other people? You mentioned being diagnosed with ADHD higher up, but part of the diagnostic criteria for ADHD is quite literally about severity of the symptoms:
DSM-5: "There is clear evidence that the symptoms interfere with, or reduce the quality of, social, school, or work functioning."
ICD-11: "Several symptoms of inattention/hyperactivity-impulsivity that are persistent, and sufficiently severe that they have a direct negative impact on academic, occupational, or social functioning"
Being capable of pushing through basic adult responsibilities, regardless of discomfort and difficulties (without burning yourself out!), and failing to do so to the degree that it severely negatively affects your life is the defining line between "order" and "disorder".
If you have a very demanding job then you might experience symptoms that are consistent with ADHD. That's why the diagnostic process is supposed to verify that there's a clear history of symptoms ranging back to your teenage years (or earlier) and that your symptoms aren't being caused by general life stressors.
> The idea that everything in life should induce minimal discomfort or that "it's hard" is an excuse is a completely modern, first world problem, to speak of privilege.
No, the idea is that people should receive help if we have a neurodevelopmental disorder that is severe enough to significantly impact our quality of life. Just like with any other medical condition.
> Mindfulness and thinking about your thoughts are proven as effective or more effective than medication for a wide range of psychological disorders, including ADHD, or CBT if you want to formalize it.
False:
> CBT is best used within a multi-modal treatment approach and as an adjunct to medication as current research does not fully support the efficacy of CBT as a sole treatment for adult ADHD [274,[316], [317], [318]]. Most controlled studies have been conducted in patients taking ADHD medication and demonstrate an additional significant treatment effect [313,[318], [319], [320], [321], [322]]. The largest controlled multi-center CBT-study to date has demonstrated that psychological interventions result in better outcomes when combined with MPH as compared to psychological interventions in unmedicated patients [228]. In a systematic review of 51 pharmacological and non-pharmacological interventions [316], the highest proportion of improved outcomes (83%) was for patients receiving combination treatment.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092493381...
Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)
#163What counts as a “disorder” is often not based on empirical evidence but on what is determined as undesirable, maladaptive, or outside the social norm…by Americans. The DSM in many ways represents the worst of so-called social science.
I've seen that used before to dismiss the severity of conditions like autism and especially ADHD. It's often coming from a well-meaning place, and sometimes it's just a comforting story people tell themselves in order to not feel as deficient ("The problem isn't me, it's the system!").
It's also absolutely true that the demands society places on all of us are unnatural and often excessive, but the fact is that even absent all external expectations some people with mental illness will be unable to accomplish what they themselves want and should be able to accomplish.
Even the most utopian, accepting, accommodating society it wouldn't be enough to make up for some people's inability to function.
I feel the same about a lot of the "super power" talk when it comes to mental illness. There are advantages and disadvantages to just about anything, but on the whole conditions like ADHD or autism tend to do way more harm than good.
Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hold on.. did you just say there is a drug I can take that will making talking to people less boring and doing housework fun?
you clearly have not experienced any range of uppers
Edit: ok, that was vallium. ;)
Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)
#165The DSM is a bunch of nonsense. As long as they don’t provide physical mechanisms for disorders, it’s worthless. It clusters symptoms without knowing the underlying causes. It’s like going to the doctor with a runny nose, who the claims it’s influenza, due to the runny nose, without testing for Covid.
> As long as they don’t provide physical mechanisms for disorders, it’s worthless
This reasoning will dismiss too many things.
We don't know the physics of almost anything, it's all progressive levels of approximation.
For the longest time we knew nothing about the physical mechanisms of anesthetics, or how a plane wing works.
Science doesn't need the mechanism. It needs predictive power. Observations, hypotheses, tests and thesis.
Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’ve had a bunch of neuro/psycho classes and this was always well understood. This stuff is complicated. People are going to get it wrong. That sucks. But if you’re going to judge the book, judge it by how it presents itself, don’t judge it by how a third party misrepresents it.
If the DSM merely described sets of symptoms and gave them names, I'd buy that. But by also mentioning (e.g. suggesting) specific treatments, the book is used as a prescription tool, not just a diagnostic tool. > But if you’re going to judge the book, judge it by how it presents itself Quite so. I just as we judge people by their actions, not their words, I judge the DSM by how it's actual content is structured, not…
Doctors (at least the good ones) aren't usually going in blind and just doing whatever the DSM tell them to as if they were following a flowchart or checklist. The DSM (which I'm not even fully defending here, I personally it feel has all kinds of problems) is just a guide. It's not the only tool in a doctor's arsenal and they aren't obligated to follow it.
Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
How else would you do it? Unlike an e.g. viral infection there is no positive test you can look at. Generally a disorder is considered something that significantly impacts someone's life, getting in the way of things like working, social life, life enjoyment. I don't think you can be totally objective about this, and you get into things like if i.e. autism is mild is it a disorder? It's pretty clear to me it should b…
> Generally a disorder is considered something that significantly impacts someone's life, getting in the way of things like working, social life, life enjoyment. With the same argument, we could arguue that working and social life are getting in the way how I am, thus working and social life should be considered disorders.
Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
That’s not accurate in the case of osteopenia. It’s defined by a T score. The quantile of the distribution of bone density measurements of young, healthy people that matched the bone density of this patient. Treatments for osteopenia are basically making sure you’re getting enough calcium, vitaD, and high impact exercise…if everyone did all those things (and they worked), the rate of osteopenia would drop to zero.
Yeah, and the T score doesn’t seem to have any medical basis. Between 1.0 and 2.5 standard deviation is something like 15% of the population. “1.0” and “2.5” are ridiculously round number. What is the medical significance of such? Sure, at some point, it will be correlated with fragile bones. Adult male height is roughly 5’9” with standard deviation of 2.8”. We DON’T say adult males under 5’2” are diagnosed as having…
If males under 5’2” were having clear difficulty functioning and outcomes were measurably worse for most of them and large numbers of them were seeking treatment and we actually had safe and effective treatments which measurably decreased or eliminated the problems caused by the fact that they are under 5’2” for most of them, then I'd expect that we would consider it a medical disease/disorder. Why shouldn't we?
Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)
#169Earlier quoted context omitted.
> only the catastrophic is worth addressing This is a very privileged view of the mind. I have ADHD (and autism). But I also have a quite high IQ, if one cares about such things. I'm pretty successful, professionally. But it took until around 40yo to get the ADHD diagnosis and get a prescription for medication that has been life-altering. Was I suffering from catastrophic failures? Absolutely not: married, have kids,…
Hold on.. did you just say there is a drug I can take that will making talking to people less boring and doing housework fun?
Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Why do you presume I'm neurotypical and undiagnosed with any psychiatric disorder? Because you talk like one, with no apparent empathy for the neurodiverse, except perhaps people with profound issues. "We shouldn't treat any problems except the catastrophically bad." Gross. > I bet if you knew your house would burn down if you didn't do "normal" things you would have done them no problem. This is not arguing in fav…
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Getting sleep right helps a lot. Getting sunlight helps a lot. etc But in the end a notable problematic aspect of it remains.