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Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

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Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#161

Post by gottorf »

lambdasquirrel wrote: post #120
zxcvbn4038 wrote: post #97

I recently bought a SIG P320, and a week later, I started reading articles about it self discharging. =P It’s not like it happens all the time, but it seems that if the safety lever spring’s thickness is off by a thousandth of an inch, and the height of the post it fits on is also off by a thousandth of an inch, and you drop the pistol at just the right angle with enough force, the FBI reportedly got it to discharge…

A thousandth of an inch would do it? They couldn't give more margin-of-safety to a critical part like that? A thousand of an inch isn't such a theoretical number. It's about 25 microns, and I've shimmed one of my back-focusing photography lenses for less than that much (about 10 microns, to be specific). This is something that they ought to be able to machine for, but depending on the context, it might not leave much…

> A thousandth of an inch would do it? They couldn't give more margin-of-safety to a critical part like that?

If it's true, that's truly terrible design.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#162

Post by andrewflnr »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #79
dcrazy wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t read nabla’s comment as accusing the deceased of being an idiot. Rather, it was a statement that the military is full of idiots (aka teenage boys) and therefore any standard issue weapon should be designed appropriately. A gun that can go off on its own even when handled properly is the opposite of idiot-proof.

> the military is full of idiots (aka teenage boys) The Air Force is not. (The average Air Force servicemember is older, better educated, better paid and subject to more demands than the average servicemember in the other branches.)

Even an "intelligent" (i.e. clever) teenage boy or young man is often still an idiot (i.e. prone to astonishingly bad decisions).

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#163

Post by esseph »

why_at wrote: post #147
esseph wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most states prevent you from drawing without firing, because it is considered brandishing / threatening. So you either draw and fire and call the police and tell them what happened, or you don't and just... deal with the consequences of whatever happened instead.

I know only an average amount about guns/gun laws (which is to say, not very much), but this seems pretty off to me. If someone is going to attack me with a knife, but then I draw a gun and they run away, surely that's not illegal because I didn't shoot them.

Search "brandishing laws"

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#164

Post by gottorf »

djoldman wrote: post #143
TheAmazingRace wrote: post #17

It's crazy how the P320 has such a bad reputation, while the P365, a 9mm micro-pistol by Sig Sauer, is a phenomenal piece of kit by comparison. I purchased mine in 2018 and it's seen thousands of rounds put through it with zero issues encountered.

As someone who has never touched a firearm, I'm curious: what are you doing firing thousands of rounds? Is it target practice?

As a recreational shooter, thousands of rounds is really not that much. I virtually never leave a range trip with fewer than a hundred rounds fired. And yes, for me, it's a combination of practice and fun ("plinking").

If ammunition didn't cost what it did, I'm sure I would shoot a lot more.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#165

Post by andrewmcwatters »

umeshunni wrote: post #95
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ford, GM, and Tesla are all bottom barrel automakers. All three of them relying on the government to prop them up, too. Otherwise, the Japanese market would have obliterated the American automotive industry ages ago.

> Otherwise, the Japanese market would have obliterated the American automotive industry ages ago Or the Chinese in the last 5 years like they have done in Europe and rest of the world.

Yeah, I feel like BYD would kill Tesla if they sold cars here.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#166

Post by andrewflnr »

ipv6ipv4 wrote: post #102
darkteflon wrote: post #53

Lots of informative comments in the thread about how carrying with a chambered round reduces the time and complexity to getting a shot off. I have limited knowledge of guns. I understood that they had a physical safety switch that had to be manipulated before the firearm could be used. Is that the case? If so, is the safety left off when people are carrying with a round chambered? Or have I misunderstood the purpose…

> Lots of informative comments in the thread about how carrying with a chambered round reduces the time and complexity to getting a shot off. This information should be kept in mind whenever anyone, especially a gun advocate, expresses dismay at the frequency of police shootings in America. America is so awash in guns, and people willing to use them, that for the average cop it is better to shoot first and ask questi…

Yes, cops (should) face higher standards for their behavior and the safety of those around them. That's by design. Supposedly that's why we respect them more than, say, a cashier, but both sides of that deal have broken down.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#167

Post by ramses0 »

spl757 wrote: post #133

There are really two separate claims being made about the P320 and unintentional discharges. One claim is that the gun can fire when dropped at a certain angle from a certain height. The voluntary "recall" lets you send it back to Sig and they replace some parts. I think the cause was because the trigger itself was bulky enough for a drop to give it enough inertia to fire, but I'm not 100% sure on that. The other cla…

https://youtube.com/shorts/cOUfurKIjnI

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#168

Post by andrewflnr »

nosignono wrote: post #11

Everyone I know has been saying, for years , to not carry Sig 320s or their variants. Those things are dangerous. It's tragic it took the death of someone from what (at this point) was an entirely preventable outcome.

They didn't have good evidence until recently, though. Or at least that's my understanding.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#169

Post by TheFreim »

ipv6ipv4 wrote: post #102
darkteflon wrote: post #53

Lots of informative comments in the thread about how carrying with a chambered round reduces the time and complexity to getting a shot off. I have limited knowledge of guns. I understood that they had a physical safety switch that had to be manipulated before the firearm could be used. Is that the case? If so, is the safety left off when people are carrying with a round chambered? Or have I misunderstood the purpose…

> Lots of informative comments in the thread about how carrying with a chambered round reduces the time and complexity to getting a shot off. This information should be kept in mind whenever anyone, especially a gun advocate, expresses dismay at the frequency of police shootings in America. America is so awash in guns, and people willing to use them, that for the average cop it is better to shoot first and ask questi…

> We’ve just been informed that in threatening situations there is no time to chamber a round, but cops are simultaneously supposed to take the time to evaluate the threat to their safety.

I think you have misunderstood the order of operations in a violent encounter. The issue of chambering a round is in light of the fact that you have already identified an immediate violent threat and you need to end that threat. The entire question of carrying chambered/empty is completely separate from threat identification and whether or not a shooting is justified.

You also simply don't appear understand the time scale in which violent altercations and legitimate responses take place. They happen quickly, and so once a threat has been identified you need to remove as many barriers to action as possible. Adding 1/2 to 2 seconds can easily be the difference between life and death after you've already made the judgement about the situation. Again, the issue here isn't whether or not someone has identified a threat but rather how quickly and effectively they can respond after they've identified the threat.

If we want to speak intelligently about use of force and police reform we should avoid conflating unrelated issues (i.e. whether or not an office acted appropriately versus the ability to act properly after a threat has been identified).

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#170

Post by gottorf »

Spooky23 wrote: post #140
tshaddox wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. Why is that your opinion? Surely there's a wide variety of plausible scenarios where carrying a concealed weapon without a round chambered is much better than not carrying a concealed weapon.

A big part of the fantasy/thought process is you’re trained and vigilant, ready to respond in a split second to some threat in the Home Depot parking lot. The reality is… not that.

The reality is that the vast majority of law-abiding gun owners who carry concealed strongly hope that they never, ever have to draw their weapon.
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