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Six Years of Gemini

geminiprotocol.net

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Re: Six Years of Gemini

#161

Post by rglullis »

uamgeoalsk wrote: post #158
rglullis wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because the whole point of it is again to function as a community of amateurs Looks like I will have to point to the top of the thread again. If your solution only works for a niche and it can only exist because it is so small that it is only interesting for a handful of people, then it is not an actual solution to the modern web!

That's not up to you to say. If it solves the issues I have with the modern web , it is an actual solution for me. And if changing my browser or installing extensions does nothing to solve the issues I have with the modern web , then that's not even on the table. A solution that works for a niche... works for that niche. It's not like your solution of switching your browser or installing extensions universally solves…

We are definitely talking about different things.

I'm talking about systemic issues in the modern web. Surveillance Capitalism. The control of mass communication platforms in the hands of a few corporations. The "attention economy" which makes creators more interested in collecting eyeballs than being rewarded by the quality of their work. Cultural homogenization driven by "the algorithm".

This is a lot bigger than "annoyances", and we are not going to solve any of this by acting like it all can be ignored and that all we need is to seek refuge in some ascetic application.

Re: Six Years of Gemini

#162

Post by bayindirh »

rglullis wrote: post #155
bayindirh wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The tool is for someone that needs to solve a problem at a different scale than what you and I need. You don't have to use it. No one is forcing you to adopt it. Their problems do not apply to you and no one is stripping you of the ability to solve your problem the way you see fit. False analogy. First, I know what scaling means, and I yell at the tool because it makes something more complicated than it should for…

> I mean, nobody incl. me in this conversation told that it's a total replacement for HTTP/S or current web, but an alternative one for people who want alternatives. Look at the start of the thread. My question was "you are looking for a way to get rid of the annoying issues of the modern www. What is the solution that solves this with the least amount of work?" You (among others) came on to argue that not only doing…

I re-read the thread. Yes, developing a new transport with a well defined subset of the incumbent is a lower effort and better solution for me.

On the other hand, you're still adamantly insisting that everyone says that "Gemini will and shall replace HTTP, cope, duh", while in fact nobody is saying that. Instead, we (as in the people reply to you) say that "That's a neat little protocol which does what we want for some use cases, and we use and enjoy it for the said use cases". It's just an alternative, not a replacement. Seeing it as a replacement and being actively pushed as one is your confirmation bias, again.

Let me repeat: Gemini is the best way to solve that problem for me and some others. And I want and will sustain the argument that rebuilding is a better way for some problems, even though I'm pretty against it most of the time.

BTW, I already use non-chromium browsers for a fact. I never used chromium based browsers daily, and made them default, ever.

Again for the third and last time: I and other people replying to you didn't say Gemini is a replacement to HTTP. It's a neat little protocol which does some things well and used for some use cases, which happens to my main use cases for the thingy called web.

I have no qualms with your choices with views, but to try to portray your confirmation bias as what I and others say is stuffing words to others' mouth and is an insult to people's intelligence.

Re: Six Years of Gemini

#163

Post by uamgeoalsk »

rglullis wrote: post #161
uamgeoalsk wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not up to you to say. If it solves the issues I have with the modern web , it is an actual solution for me. And if changing my browser or installing extensions does nothing to solve the issues I have with the modern web , then that's not even on the table. A solution that works for a niche... works for that niche. It's not like your solution of switching your browser or installing extensions universally solves…

We are definitely talking about different things. I'm talking about systemic issues in the modern web. Surveillance Capitalism. The control of mass communication platforms in the hands of a few corporations. The "attention economy" which makes creators more interested in collecting eyeballs than being rewarded by the quality of their work. Cultural homogenization driven by "the algorithm". This is a lot bigger than "…

Quoting you:

> Problem: you are looking for a way to get rid of the annoying issues of the modern www. What is the solution that solves this with the least amount of work?

Talk about shifting the goalposts! If the idea is to dismantle surveillance capitalism and the attention economy, sure, Gemini won't get us there. But neither will Firefox or browser extensions.

You're talking a major political, societal and cultural revolution here, and for that I don't think "least amount of work" is something to be aiming for.

Re: Six Years of Gemini

#164

Post by RiverCrochet »

miragecraft wrote: post #149
RiverCrochet wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With .gmi files or "gemini://" URLs and a compliant Gemini client, I don't need to even need to load the document beforehand to know if it intends to execute code on my device or not. It already won't by design, it won't in the future, and it doesn't require settings management, vendor whitelisting, popups, or caring who makes the browser for me to make it behave that way. Whereas that .html document with it's noexec…

You can create a browser plugin that detect such tag and automatically turns off JavaScript. You can even configure the plugin to detect if a page contains JavaScript while claiming not to be.

With a dedicated Gemini client I simply have to trust/verify code provided the client developer.

With your solution now I have to trust/verify code provided by the browser developer(s), the apparatus the browser provides for extensions, and code provided by the extension developers.

If I'm super paranoid I can just look at a .gmi in Notepad or vi and understand it. I can't do that with all but the most basic HTML.

Re: Six Years of Gemini

#165

Post by rglullis »

uamgeoalsk wrote: post #163
rglullis wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are definitely talking about different things. I'm talking about systemic issues in the modern web. Surveillance Capitalism. The control of mass communication platforms in the hands of a few corporations. The "attention economy" which makes creators more interested in collecting eyeballs than being rewarded by the quality of their work. Cultural homogenization driven by "the algorithm". This is a lot bigger than "…

Quoting you: > Problem: you are looking for a way to get rid of the annoying issues of the modern www. What is the solution that solves this with the least amount of work? Talk about shifting the goalposts! If the idea is to dismantle surveillance capitalism and the attention economy, sure, Gemini won't get us there. But neither will Firefox or browser extensions. You're talking a major political, societal and cultur…

We vastly underestimate what could be done with a powerful browser. Ad blockers are just the tip of the iceberg.

A powerful browser could work, e.g, as the basis for any type of local-first application and we would solve 98% of the issues of social media networks by letting the browser in control of the functionality. [0] We have web browsers that can let you browse through Tor and we would get rid of data tracking. We can have a "good guy's version" of HolaVPN where people could still cooperate in the data proxying, but without the data selling part. Brave gets a lot of shit because of their crypto stuff, but if more people were seriously looking at their platform as a privacy-preserving opt-in monetization platform, we would be a far better place that we are nowadays.

We can not do any of that with an user agent that can do nothing but fetch and present text documents. We need an actual application platform.

[0]: https://raphael.lullis.net/a-plan-for-social-media-less-fedi...

Re: Six Years of Gemini

#166

Post by uamgeoalsk »

rglullis wrote: post #165
uamgeoalsk wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoting you: > Problem: you are looking for a way to get rid of the annoying issues of the modern www. What is the solution that solves this with the least amount of work? Talk about shifting the goalposts! If the idea is to dismantle surveillance capitalism and the attention economy, sure, Gemini won't get us there. But neither will Firefox or browser extensions. You're talking a major political, societal and cultur…

We vastly underestimate what could be done with a powerful browser. Ad blockers are just the tip of the iceberg. A powerful browser could work, e.g, as the basis for any type of local-first application and we would solve 98% of the issues of social media networks by letting the browser in control of the functionality. [0] We have web browsers that can let you browse through Tor and we would get rid of data tracking.…

The issues you're talking about (surveillance capitalism, the attention economy) aren’t just browser problems. They're systemic societal and economic forces that go far beyond what a browser can fix. People accept surveillance and attention-hacking in every part of their lives: phones, smart TVs, credit cards, physical store visits. Thinking a better browser setup will meaningfully push back against that feels..... extremely optimistic at best. And that's me being quite charitable in my choice of words.

Also, I think it’s worth noting that you seem to be arguing against points no one here is actually making. Most people in this thread — myself included — aren’t claiming Gemini is a replacement for the entire web, or that it can dismantle surveillance capitalism. We’re just discussing a tool that works well for certain use cases.

As bayindirh pointed out in another reply to you:

> Again for the third and last time: I and other people replying to you didn't say Gemini is a replacement to HTTP. It's a neat little protocol which does some things well and used for some use cases, which happens to my main use cases for the thingy called web. > I have no qualms with your choices with views, but to try to portray your confirmation bias as what I and others say is stuffing words to others' mouth and is an insult to people's intelligence.

A conversation only works when people respond to what’s actually being said — not to imagined arguments. I’d really appreciate it if you could take a step back and engage with the points people are making, rather than framing everyone as advocating for something they’re not.

Re: Six Years of Gemini

#167

Post by miragecraft »

RiverCrochet wrote: post #164
miragecraft wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can create a browser plugin that detect such tag and automatically turns off JavaScript. You can even configure the plugin to detect if a page contains JavaScript while claiming not to be.

With a dedicated Gemini client I simply have to trust/verify code provided the client developer. With your solution now I have to trust/verify code provided by the browser developer(s), the apparatus the browser provides for extensions, and code provided by the extension developers. If I'm super paranoid I can just look at a .gmi in Notepad or vi and understand it. I can't do that with all but the most basic HTML.

Ok I guess if you are that level of paranoid - even though both Chromium and Firefox are open source and under a heck of a lot of scrutiny for security vulnerabilities - then I understand why you prefer Gemini.

I just feel the fact that it cuts it self off from the wider clearnet completely kills your audience reach, if you’re ok writing to a very small insular community then sure, but most people want their writings to be read by as many people as possible.

Re: Six Years of Gemini

#168

Post by tvshtr »

dimkr1 wrote: post #40
tvshtr wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's this federated with anything?

https://github.com/dimkr/tootik is another Gemini social network that does federate over ActivityPub, and I've been thinking about developing a minimalist ActivityPub alternative (maybe using Gemini and Titan to replace HTTP GET and POST, respectively) that can coexist with ActivityPub support

thanks! looks interesting
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