IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes • Hacker News Board

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#161

Post by waste_monk » Wed, Jul 09, 2025, 4:58 PM UTC

op00to wrote: post #129

Cu3PO42 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, mine do. Nothing in my HA has ever broken after an update or randomly for some other reason.

ZWaveJS used to break frequently for me, but I run an HA container on a Linux box, rather than the HAOS or whatever. I control the updates, and can rollback if things break, so it's not really a problem.

I installed Home Assistant recently and the docs suggest HAOS is the strongly preferred option these days.

Something about HAOS uses docker to install and manage extensions, whereas if you run the HA docker container it can't as docker-inside-docker isn't supported (?), and thus some functionality is unavailable (at least at the surface level).

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#162

Post by AndrewDucker » Wed, Jul 09, 2025, 4:58 PM UTC

cheeze wrote: post #148

AndrewDucker wrote: post #12

I am hoping that this is the thing that triggers Matter/Thread to go mainstream. I'm currently blocked because Google and Amazon don't support "Generic Switches". Which means that if I switch over a light-bulb to being a smart one I can't use something like the Arre Smart Button to control them. Which seems like such a standard requirement that I do not understand why it's not supported. If Ikea will let me set that…

For how much hype Matter had (I remember everyone saying "Just wait! Any day now!") it sure... hasn't delivered

Yeah.

I've got it up and running with some Nanoleaf lights and Amazon Echo running as border routers, and it's rock solid nowadays. But my wife hates voice-controlled devices, so I can't put them in elsewhere until I can slap in some buttons to control them. And that's basically not supported, which leaves me thinking that either the spec is a disaster or Google/Amazon are deliberately kneecapping it.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#163

Post by bevr1337 » Wed, Jul 09, 2025, 4:59 PM UTC

lukeschlather wrote: post #150

bevr1337 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Edit: One thing Matter adds that was not in Zigbee is Bluetooth provisioning, letting you use your phone to add a device to your network without QR codes or numbers to type in. What follows are my two pennies as a developer working in home automation for 7 years. In this venue, readers may even have more knowledge regarding security, but I hope to speak to a common case. I develop this exact feature though not for…

I feel like the problem is a lack of realism about what is required to meet the usability standards of traditional analog switches. Like, I hear you talking about a tradeoff between security and usability for a "rare" provisioning event but I think in practice if you imagine a device has a 10 year lifespan, I would guess that making the provisioning hardware probably translates into at a minimum a full month of downt…

> if you imagine a device has a 10 year lifespan, I would guess that making the provisioning hardware probably translates into at a minimum a full month of downtime over the lifespan of the device, with many devices being down for months or years at a time because no one can be bothered to figure out why.

Can you explain more about how you reached this conclusion? Why are devices offline for years now?

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#164

Post by Volundr » Wed, Jul 09, 2025, 5:00 PM UTC

arghwhat wrote: post #155

wkat4242 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah and matter needs internet access in many cases. It was supposed to be the saviour of open home automation. But in practice it leaves too many strings attached that the manufacturer can take advantage of. And despite it not being open enough for open source enthusiasts, it's also got a bad name with manufacturers. I work for one and I asked why we wouldn't implement matter and thread and it was laughed off becaus…

Matter doesn't need internet access, it's an entirely local protocol even when you integrate to other vendor ecosystems. Now, something like Google Home might decide to go online to talk to a Google Home Hub device, which is where Google wants to initiate all Matter communication from, but that's a Google thing, not a Matter thing.

Technically Matter itself doesn't require Internet access, but you'll come across many devices that won't operate (or even join) without a functioning border router. What's in the spec and the lived experience are sort of different here.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#165

Post by Marsymars » Wed, Jul 09, 2025, 5:02 PM UTC

JoshTriplett wrote: post #103

macNchz wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I never put enough effort into it, but I've slowly coalesced on only having IKEA smart home products after years of acquiring piecemeal stuff and trying to wire it together with Home Assistant. I've shut down HA, and with every non-IKEA "smart" thing I have nowadays I just use the manufacturer's app (though I've become pretty sour on most smart devices overall and avoid them when possible). I didn't really ca…

That's exactly the reason I'm hesitant to dive into Home Assistant myself. I want my smart-home devices to Just Work. I want them to be appliances .

The problem I’ve run into is that once you’re running a lot of devices, you inevitably end up with a bunch of automations and logic that can’t really be simplified. With Apple Home/HomeKit, everything Just Works, but having dozens of automation rules and scenes configured in Apple’s low—information-density UI is worse than managing yaml config.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#166

Post by bluGill » Wed, Jul 09, 2025, 5:02 PM UTC

nagisa wrote: post #154

bluGill wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is my sticking point - every border router I can find has a bunch of other things I don't want. I don't want my lights available from the internet, I just want to turn on the shed outside light from inside the house when I have guests. (since they are likely to park by the shed and walk to the house) That is I don't want google/amazon/samsung/apple to control my house. Most border routers are also connect to our…

While not a proper product, you can buy a small ESP32C6 devboard for up-to-5 USD/EUR and flash an example from esp-idf. This is paired with some software that runs on posix systems (think your HA host) that together form the necessary commissioning and border routing functionality. Its ends up being a relatively simple device that just takes IP packets off the radio and puts then somewhere else, so I've no doubt some…

Just checked again, those ideas have started to mature to something that is possible now (vs 6 months ago when I last looked). I have kids and many other things in my life, so I'm don't have much time to work on projects like this. That might be what I end up doing, for now I just have a light that hasn't worked for months because I don't want to figure this out (the manual switch is broken. Since the switch is both rarely used and one I'd want remotely controlled anyway I've been hesitating)

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#167

Post by macNchz » Wed, Jul 09, 2025, 5:03 PM UTC

turtlebits wrote: post #112

macNchz wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I never put enough effort into it, but I've slowly coalesced on only having IKEA smart home products after years of acquiring piecemeal stuff and trying to wire it together with Home Assistant. I've shut down HA, and with every non-IKEA "smart" thing I have nowadays I just use the manufacturer's app (though I've become pretty sour on most smart devices overall and avoid them when possible). I didn't really ca…

Home Assistant "just works". Yes it has a ton of knobs, but in the 3 years I've been running it, it's had no issues. Certain manufacturer devices being flaky, yes, but as a platform, it's been rock solid. I've not touched its config in over a year and everything works as it should.

I guess the fact that some manufacturer integrations are flaky is hard to reconcile for me as far as the promise of "having multiple kinds of smart devices isn't really a problem". Regardless of whose fault it is, those flaky devices contribute to a less stable system.

It's been a bit since I was operating it, but I did at times certainly have issues with updates—perhaps just individual plugins or system updates that created an issue, either way, still a situation where I had to sit at a terminal and debug. I only ever ran the Docker version, not the OS, so perhaps this is less problematic in a more completely controlled stack.

I don't think I'm alone in this view, broadly speaking: https://www.reddit.com/r/homeautomation/comments/18hvl3b/i_g...

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#168

Post by bri3d » Wed, Jul 09, 2025, 5:05 PM UTC

lukeschlather wrote: post #146

bri3d wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that there’s zero chance for a homebrew scheme; it’s pretty easy to enable development mode and commission self-made devices using Google Home or Apple Home on both iOS and Android.

Dev mode seems like such a nonstarter. I don't know what dev mode entails, but I don't want to be running my kitchen light in dev mode, I'll just use an analog switch.

> Dev mode seems like such a nonstarter. I don't know what dev mode entails,

... what?

All it means is that the "commissioner" (broker which attaches Matter devices to your Fabric) ignores the chaining of the device attestation to an approved CA. In the case of using Google's Commissioner, this requires adding a Vendor and Product ID in your account's Developer console. In the case of Apple's Commissioner, it's just pressing a "Trust this unknown device" button. That's it.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#169

Post by Marsymars » Wed, Jul 09, 2025, 5:05 PM UTC

orev wrote: post #99

darkwater wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but then you have a hard-dependency on HA for inter-network communication, which I try to avoid as much as possible (but I fail to, for a couple of subsystems). My failure model is: 1) no electricity, everything down but fiber, wifi, HA and the doorbell (they run off an UPS) 2) internet down: no problem, you just cannot reach the home automation from outside 3) Home assistant down: zigbee devices are paired toge…

I consider it a requirement of any smart home that alternative methods need to be available during failures. Simply having other devices around that aren’t smart, like an old fashioned light bulb and physical switch to get you through until you can fix whatever is down. 100% uptime is very difficult for large, well-funded IT companies, so I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect it from these consumer-grade devices. W…

Lutron Caseta switches don’t use an open protocol and don’t seem to get much love in the fancy consumer-level smarthome space, but have been bomb-proof for reliability for me and work to turn lights on/off as long as they have power.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#170

Post by olalonde » Wed, Jul 09, 2025, 5:10 PM UTC

snickerdoodle12 wrote: post #117

olalonde wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. https://developers.home.google.com/codelabs/matter-device

Can I sell it without paying a gazillion fees? Spoiler alert: No. There's a whole bunch of bullshit: https://developers.home.google.com/matter/integration/pair#p... You can sort of run your own device if you're fine with giving google far too much information and they can block you at any time. Face it, bigtech has a hardon for closed ecosystems. If they could they'd make it so every computer that wants to send an et…

Do you extend that criticism to USB, Bluetooth, WiFi, etc.? The alternative and current status quo is every vendor developing their own proprietary, incompatible and insecure protocols. Unless there's a better alternative I am unaware of, Matter is a step towards greater interoperability and openness.