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JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

jonoalderson.com

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Re: JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

#161

Post by const_cast »

Mo3 wrote: post #150
serial_dev wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This isn’t about going back to table layouts or banning JavaScript. It’s about building with intent. > It’s not about purity. It’s about outcomes. > Use what works. I think the website is fast and the majority of that JS is for the comment section+recaptcha (that's also for comments?), website works without it, I can tab through things, and the site is accessible, so I don't think that hundred KB of JS is a big "go…

So how did JavaScript break the web then? It didn't. Badly engineered sites suck. Nothing new.

No this is partially Javascript's problem. JS has virtually no standard library and was, for a long time, a bad, lobotomized language. ES6 helps a lot, but in the meantime we had to rely on absolutely huge frameworks.

JS also did not properly address the complexity of the web. We didn't have good APIs for manipulating the DOM. We didn't have good APIs for making server requests. We did things like spawn iframes to call XML endpoints that we then transform the result of into HTML via XSLT and then inject that into the DOM.

And, on top of all of this, JS is not performant. It's an extremely footgunny language, too. So we build on top more complexity. Minimizers, linters, static analyzers, compression, obfuscators, and more. These days JS is no longer a scripting language - it has more build steps than a C++ project.

So anyway, now here we are.

Re: JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

#162

Post by const_cast »

quonn wrote: post #151
zwnow wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, been working with Js (frontend only) for a few years now and never had real issues. I wouldn't chose it for my backends though...

What's wrong with TypeScript for backends? Specifically backends where the load is moderate or happening in the database anyway?

TypeScript is a wildly unpleasant language. If I'm going to be waiting around for a compiler anyway, why not use an easier nominally typed language? I mean, dotnet is right there... and it's got features out of the wazoo. No need to download external libraries when your bloated backend framework ties your shoes for you.

Or if I'm really into structural typing, Go is right there. I'll tell you, it compiles a lot faster. And a lot less type Olympics, too. Easier to read. Less bug-prone. TS isn't a bad language. But it's certainly not the best.

Re: JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

#163

Post by nchmy »

onion2k wrote: post #7

Saying JS broke the web when your website loads 754kB of JS across 13 separate requests makes me wonder if you're very serious about the problem.

The difference is whether js is in the critical render path. With ssr html, it doesn't need to be. It's just a sprinkling on top.

Re: JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

#164

Post by nchmy »

Zealotux wrote: post #117
onion2k wrote: post #7

Saying JS broke the web when your website loads 754kB of JS across 13 separate requests makes me wonder if you're very serious about the problem.

I find your argument disingenuous, the website is still usable with JS disabled and it's obvious the article is talking about JS-heavy websites that could do without it, not advocating for a complete anti-JS stance. It also uses HTTP3 is seems, so making 13 separate requests isn't much of an issue, it has a good performance score which is almost surprising for a Wordpress website.

Why is good performance surprising for WordPress? It's just html, and I assume it is fully cached since it's not a site that has login, dynamic stuff (that's when WordPress becomes a big problem, but can be surmounted).

Re: JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

#165

Post by nchmy »

pyman wrote: post #122
austin-cheney wrote: post #2

Bitch about JavaScript all you want but this exact failure has occurred in many languages. It’s not a language failure. It’s a people failure. Nobody trains JavaScript developers properly and employers knowingly hire unqualified people to do the work. Of course the result is shit. It would be just as shitty if this were a different language. If you want to isolate yourself from so much of the stupid then use a PiHole…

We need to be honest about this. JavaScript created loads of jobs, helped people buy houses and raise families. That's real impact, and I respect that. But I can't help wondering: did we choose it because it was the best tool, or just the least terrible one that was easy enough to learn? I'm assuming that back then, people chose JS because of its simplicity. But maybe that simplicity came with an ocean of problems. I…

Would it be a good thing if a million unemployed devs were employed to just dig a big hole? Or, worse, cut down forests with axes?

Job creation for the sake of it isn't a good thing. What matters is whether it creates actual value, and does so efficiently.

The thrust of this, and many similar articles, is that it JS frameworks were largely a very inefficient, ineffective solution to a nonexistent problem.

The fact that they're ALL now SSR-first - without the robust and comprehensive functionality of longstanding ssr frameworks, cms etc - proves this.

Re: JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

#166

Post by nchmy »

const_cast wrote: post #162
quonn wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with TypeScript for backends? Specifically backends where the load is moderate or happening in the database anyway?

TypeScript is a wildly unpleasant language. If I'm going to be waiting around for a compiler anyway, why not use an easier nominally typed language? I mean, dotnet is right there... and it's got features out of the wazoo. No need to download external libraries when your bloated backend framework ties your shoes for you. Or if I'm really into structural typing, Go is right there. I'll tell you, it compiles a lot faste…

Indeed, might as well use Go if you're going to use TypeScript.

Or ruby on rails, laravel, elixir or even WordPress, if you want things that are batteries included (which js frameworks or go still most definitely are not)

Re: JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

#167

Post by nchmy »

Sophira wrote: post #37

Although I agree that JS is being used incredibly irresponsibly, I also think this article is almost certainly AI-generated with minimal editing based on the way it reads, and I wish that wasn't the case because the topic deserves better than this. [Edit: Although I recognise that em dashes are what a lot of people use to identify AI-generated text, that isn't what I was doing here. I hadn't even been considering the…

I didn't get an AI vibe from this at all, and I'd consider my radar to be pretty finely tuned for and allergic to such things.

What stands out most to you?

Re: JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

#168

Post by nchmy »

CreepGin wrote: post #44
Sophira wrote: post #37

Although I agree that JS is being used incredibly irresponsibly, I also think this article is almost certainly AI-generated with minimal editing based on the way it reads, and I wish that wasn't the case because the topic deserves better than this. [Edit: Although I recognise that em dashes are what a lot of people use to identify AI-generated text, that isn't what I was doing here. I hadn't even been considering the…

Holy s@#$! You're right. I didn't catch it at first, probably because it was on the HN frontpage. But yeah, the amount of em dashes (among other things) totally gives it away. There were so many contradictions in the article, I was going to point them out. Don't see a point now.

As many others have said, this is silly. I just use hyphens as em-dashes, but their use does not mean that something is AI.

Re: JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

#169

Post by nchmy »

fleebee wrote: post #101

It's hard to take this article seriously between the unfounded claims and hyperboles. It's not because of JS that semantic HTML and accessibility are neglected: it's because of inexperienced developers. If anything, modern libraries, frameworks and tooling empower developers to build modern UIs that are accessible. Of course, with power comes responsibility, but that's like blaming the car for speeding.

But Accessibility is not the issue being discussed...

Though js frameworks are generally FAR worse for accessibility than ssr html, for lots of reasons.

Re: JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

#170

Post by nchmy »

franciscop wrote: post #33
windowshopping wrote: post #26

Rose colored glasses at their finest. I think this person has forgotten what the web was like 15 years ago. I suggest they visit some Japanese websites to find out.

I noticed this with the line "Around 2010, something shifted. The iPhone was ascendant. Native apps were sleek, fast, fluid." When the iPhone was first released, the experience was much worse than today's web experience. Sure apps/native also got much better, so 15 year ago webs were worse than today's apps, but that's not a fair comparison.

Also, note that the original intent of the iPhone was to enable PWAs - Steve Jobs basically coined the phrase! Then they abandonned that and have held back browser development for 15+ years, to keep people making native apps that they can extort
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