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Britain's police are restricting speech in worrying ways

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Re: Britain's police are restricting speech in worrying ways

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there are definitely problems, but at least you can criticise the speech laws. And fight to change them. In fact if you feel strongly about it you can do something about it. The article mentions the Free Speech Union in the UK. There is also the EFF in the USA. Democracy requires that we fight for it. Otherwise it will disappear. In dicatorships there is no opportunity to speak out.

Imo the biggest problem in Western democracies is that in a lot of ideological cases we don't have democracy at all. It doesn't matter what majority thinks as no major party is going to implement it. I get why democracy has to be indirect when it comes to many complicated, interconnected issues but things like free speech laws, abortion laws, public decency laws, smoking bans etc. should all be decided in a direct vo…

Some, mostly-western, US states have citizen-initiated state constitution amendment processes. [0]

I especially like Nevada's -- a majority in two successive general elections.

Sustainable democracy needs a jury nullification-like direct popular escape catch to solve legislatively-intractable issues (term limits, party primaries, redistricting, etc).

[0] https://ballotpedia.org/Initiated_constitutional_amendment

Re: Britain's police are restricting speech in worrying ways

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No-one voted for this. The police in the UK are using a combination of existing powers (for example, intimidating people by using their powers to question people), non-statutory instruments that politicians have told them repeatedly to stop using, and laws that are being applied to the online world in an expansive way (the current PM is the former head of government prosecutions so is basically the worst person possi…

I think the entire West is experiencing this problem. Things like immigration laws are determined not by elected officials but by bureaucrats and judges/lawyers who it turns out are often on the same side. It's a very sticky problem. The Nomenklatura of the USSR is probably the most similar description.

> are determined not by elected officials but by bureaucrats and judges/lawyers who it turns out are often on the same side

"Fixing" that is an awfully slippery slope towards dictatorship though.

The entire reason that system exists -- to preserve competence and skills in government despite political leadership change and to provide independent checks on elected officials' power -- is because of historical abuses by elected officials.

Ergo, I'm enormously suspicious of suggestions about tearing down the barriers to change...

... because those barriers exist for a damned good reason.

Imho, people should talk more about adjusting the balance in the system, but preserving all the independent components, and less about vilifying specific pieces of the balance of power.

Re: Britain's police are restricting speech in worrying ways

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it can be attributed to political parties in the UK. By most standards, the British political tradition has remained paternalistic in it's mindset, and a lot of the shifts in civil liberties happened fairly late (1980s-90s) and without the requisite judicial scaffolding being built in place. Furthermore, a lot of the same powers and institutions used for internal security during the Troubles were redeplo…

Yes, the Troubles are a huge factor, the security services play a huge and unwelcome part in our political process. I think I mentioned elsewhere, I assume most people are familiar with this but most of the media campaigns that accompany legislation are pushed by the police/security services. Online Safety Act was an example, there was a massive media campaign over multiple years. I believe the case that caused it ha…

A big part of this is caused by (as I understand it, open to correction!) the UK's fundamental lack of free speech rights (by individuals and groups).

The UK has free(ish) speech, that usually works well enough in practice, for most things.

But at the end of the day if the UK government and/or security services and/or wealthy people want to really put their foot on suppressing speech... they have legal tools to do so.

The UK has never really squared the circle on free speech even and especially when it's inconvenient to power.

That's a binary right. Either you have it, or you don't.

Re: Britain's police are restricting speech in worrying ways

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the linked article, the criminal was not alleged to have obstructed anything. He did message the town council saying he was holding a silent vigil, which he had done before apparently without incident. This time he was arrested, PSPO was applied, and he was fined £9000. If his message to the council said he’d be standing there reading the newspaper, would the arrest and conviction have been made?

What are you on about? The PSPO specifically prohibited activity in favour or against abortion services, including protests, harassment and vigils. He was blatantly holding a vigil and even then, I expect he could have just moved on when asked and faced no charges. Reading a newspaper would be fine, obviously, unless he specifically concocted his own newspaper with slogans on it which would then surely be a protest o…

What if it was a regular newspaper, but secretly he was praying and not actually reading the paper. Is he a criminal?

Re: Britain's police are restricting speech in worrying ways

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tories activly campaigned on the platform of regulating internet speech. > Windrush was one, there were many others mate, windrush was down to May and her spads. They knew the problems, but decided that the press was worth it. > the current level of immigration is supported by ~3% of the population Immigration has halved this year. The problem is that has tradeoffs, like social care isn't going work anymore. I un…

Exactly. I would read about what actually happened. There were multiple failures in the Home Office, in particular some statistics were incorrectly reported by the Rudd (I am not sure why you are talking about May) based on figures she was told by civil servants, she then had to resign. Not only that but the correct figures were actually leaked to the press shortly after (this is something that has happened in the Ho…

> ministers legally have a limited set of options

Yes, they have to make decisions that conform to UK laws. Rwanda is/was such a stupid idea that even if ministers had removed the relevant laws preventing them from implementing it, it would have cost hundreds of thousands per person, and not solved the issues it was supposed to.

The initial idea was, instantly deport as many people as possible (without due process, basically anyone who arrives without a visa is instantly classed as an illegal migrant, regardless of circumstances, and sent back to country of origin, even if that means death), and those that somehow do manage to claim asylum, send them to rwanda.

The policy then was "honed" as follows, so that it was actually legal, but no less stupid:

1) make it effectively illegal to claim asylum

2) buy housing in rwanda to house all successful asylum seekers, but only upto low thousands

2.1) pay over inflated costs to keep those people there for ever. They can't work there, so we have to pay them for ever.

3) make it effectively impossible to process any asylum claims.

4) because its impossible to process claims, you cant deport failed claimants, because they've not been processed

5) exhaust all short term housing in the UK for claimants, because they can't be processed and deported.

6) pay ever increasing bills for short term housing, and piss off locals, because the number of claimants increases for ever, because they can't be processed.

7) claimants abscond and are never seen again, living without a paper trail in the UK

It was so fucking mind bendingly stupid and expensive, you too would try and stop it.

Of course the press and the twitter sphere loved it, because it was a deterent. Regardless of the cost or stupidity.

What labour have floated, is that failed claimants be immediately moved to a 3rd party country pending appeal. Which much less stupid, but still expensive. I imagine it'll be dropped. The solution is to actually process asylum claims properly(which is what is being done, hence why those migrant camps are reducing).

> The game continues as long as people like you give it credibility by suggesting that voting

You seem to suggest that its the civil service that runs policy. I really would suggest reading the actual laws that are passed, and the research provided to the commons library. Civil servants can only do what the law allows. And often, those laws are fucking stupid, and done to chase a headline (see johnson/sunak)

Labour as not reform, you and I both know that. Labour are just shit and have painted themselves into a corner. Moreover, the current PM doesn't acutally publically stand for anything, which means that making decisions as a minister is very hard. (its partly the same reason sunak was so useless, most of it was he had useless ministers)

> why do you think Johnson increased immigration

because we have a chronic skills shortage, and to keep a lid on wage rises, and to stop the care sector grinding to a complete halt, we needed immigration.

Look, the issue is this, public finances are fucked. Until taxes are reformed, or we somehow grow the economy 10%, everything will be salami sliced to nothing.

both the tories and labour were dishonest about taxation. The press failed to actually tackle them on it. Mind you, if they had, would people listen. Nobody likes to bother about public finances.

"everyone is the same" is just not true, thats how we get extremists, like reform.

Re: Britain's police are restricting speech in worrying ways

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Police Scotland posted on its Twitter, is a different body and has different laws to England. The Communications Act prohibits what are at best vaguely-defined "offensive communications" Actually is gross offense. > speech and almost half of those were prosecuted. For gross offense, or threatening communications? Because there is a world of difference. Its the same act that is used to procecute someone sending deat…

Did you miss the part where I specified the Met Police often do the same. Let me give you an example of "gross offense": "commentary from you regarding the rainbow flags which represent the LBGT community." https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fl4VM7VXkAM8-km.jpg:large "Offending someone" being a crime is basically immoral. Lucy Connolly, the wife of a Conservative Party councilor, was the one jailed for her comments around m…

> was the one jailed for her comments

The one that fanned huge fucking protests, the one that caused a massive spike in violence, many hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of damage? That old poor innocent councillors wife?

Britain and the US are very different. In the same way that a lot of americans think that school shootings are a fair exchange for second amendment rights, this is a fair exchange for not having shitstirring fucks whip up tensions.

Look, you're not going to be convinced by any of this, because of where (I assume) you grew up. But think of it this way, how many of those constitutional protections Americans have now, have been broken by the current executive branch of the USA? what practical constitutional checks and balances have actually worked when they are being tested?

The 6th amendment appears to not hold with anyone who ICE touches. Personally I'd be much more excised about the USA right now, given that it cant even practice what it's currently trying to preach.

Also, if you want analysis of why Connolly got that sentence: https://davidallengreen.com/2025/05/explaining-a-31-month-se...

Re: Britain's police are restricting speech in worrying ways

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2014, Police Scotland posted on its Twitter, "Please be aware that we will continue to monitor comments on social media & any offensive comments will be investigated." Met Police have taken similar actions in pursuit of chilling effects on social media. The Communications Act prohibits what are at best vaguely-defined "offensive communications" and created Ofcom. Because of this ridiculous violation of inalienable…

The number today is 30 arrests per day.

ok, can you provide a link to where that number comes from?

Re: Britain's police are restricting speech in worrying ways

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there are definitely problems, but at least you can criticise the speech laws. And fight to change them. In fact if you feel strongly about it you can do something about it. The article mentions the Free Speech Union in the UK. There is also the EFF in the USA. Democracy requires that we fight for it. Otherwise it will disappear. In dicatorships there is no opportunity to speak out.

You can criticise things, but if you are effective, or if you criticise the wrong thing, you risk jail, harassment, ostracisation, threats, campaigns of vilification and slander, etc. Your doctor visits and lawyer visits will be surveilled, your basic diplomatic rights violated. You can be tortured in public view. Wikileaks' Julian Assange is perhaps the archetypal recent example, but there are others. Westminster ha…

Yes. Westminster has become more autoritarian.

But Julian Assange is not a good example, for many reasons. He didn't just criticise the government. He broke laws. Maybe for good reason.

Are there any examples in the UK of people being jailed for simply criticising the government? Excluding hate speech and civil disobedience?

Re: Britain's police are restricting speech in worrying ways

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there are definitely problems, but at least you can criticise the speech laws. And fight to change them. In fact if you feel strongly about it you can do something about it. The article mentions the Free Speech Union in the UK. There is also the EFF in the USA. Democracy requires that we fight for it. Otherwise it will disappear. In dicatorships there is no opportunity to speak out.

> In dicatorships there is no opportunity to speak out. There is always opportunity to speak out. In dictatorships, it usually costs more energy, money and sometimes lives. It tends to culminate in revolutions, and then the system changes. In censored quasi-democracies like what we see in "the west", it tends to culminate in being ignored and the status quo being maintained or gradually worsened. Alternatively, you m…

Snowden and Assange did a lot more than speak out. They broke laws. Maybe they were justified. Maybe not.

But they were not prosecuted for voicing their opinions.

Re: Britain's police are restricting speech in worrying ways

#170
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I follow the logic. I mean all the arguments are valid when taken separately, but the construct fails me. You mean, the dictatorship is then better because you might die but the survivors can have a revolution? Why couldn't then a democracy have a revolution as well, by exactly the same argumentation? And how's all this black and white thinking, like because democracy is not perfect, dictatorship becomes…

You're reading both too much into it. First, I don't really consider what exists in "the west" as actual democracies. They are oligarchies or autocracies disguised as democracies instead. They've always been that, only now it's becoming more obvious. > the dictatorship is then better No, not at all. But it does have a clear path toward something better. This doesn't make it better, but it is a silver lining. > Why co…

Only a fool would think a dictatorship would "have a clear path toward something better".

The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.

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