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Thoughts on thinking

dcurt.is

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Re: Thoughts on thinking

#161

Post by calebkaiser »

snackernews wrote: post #123
johnisgood wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can learn a lot from LLMs though, same with, say, Wikipedia. You need curiosity. You need the desire to learn. If you do not have it, then of course you will get nowhere, LLMs or no LLMs.

Can you learn a lot? Or do you get instant answers to every question without learning anything, as OP suggests?

You can learn an incredible amount. I do quite a bit of research as a core part of my job, and LLMs are amazing at helping me find relevant research to help me explore ideas. Something like "I'm thinking of X. Does this make sense and do you know of any similar research?" I also mentor some students whose educational journey has been fundamentally changed by them.

Like any other tool, it's more a question of how they're used. For example, I've seen incredible results for students who use ChatGPT to interrogate ideas as they synthesize them. So, for example, "I'm reading this passage PASSAGE and I'm confused about phrase X. The core idea seems similar to Y, which I am familiar with. if I had to explain X, I'd put it like this ATTEMPT Can you help me understand what I'm missing?"

The results are very impressive. I'd encourage you to try it out if you haven't.

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#162

Post by Swizec »

johnisgood wrote: post #130
azinman2 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never underestimate laziness, or willingness to take something 80% as good for 1% of the work. So most are not curious. So what do you do for them?

You have to somehow figure out the root cause of the laziness, or if it really is laziness, and not something else, e.g. a mental health issue. Plus, many kids fail school not because of laziness, but because of their toxic environment.

> if it really is laziness, and not something else, e.g. a mental health issue.

Kids optimize. When I was in high school I was fully capable of getting straight F's in a class I didn't care about and straight A's in a class I enjoyed.

Why bother learning chemistry when you could instead spend that time coding cool plugins and websites in PHP that thousands of internet strangers are using? I really did build one of the most popular phpBB plugins and knew I was gonna be a software engineer. Not that my chemistry professor cared about any of that or even understood what I'm talking about.

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#163

Post by vendiddy »

calebkaiser wrote: post #161
snackernews wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you learn a lot? Or do you get instant answers to every question without learning anything, as OP suggests?

You can learn an incredible amount. I do quite a bit of research as a core part of my job, and LLMs are amazing at helping me find relevant research to help me explore ideas. Something like "I'm thinking of X. Does this make sense and do you know of any similar research?" I also mentor some students whose educational journey has been fundamentally changed by them. Like any other tool, it's more a question of how they…

I've used it these past few months to better understand the PDF format, Nix, and a few other technical concepts.

I try to use AI to automate things I already know and force myself to learn things I don't know.

It takes discipline/curiosity but it can be a net positive.

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#164

Post by layer8 »

flysand7 wrote: post #120
zdragnar wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who has learned a second language can tell you that you aren't proficient just by memorizing vocabulary and grammar. Having a conversation and forming sentences on the fly just feels different- either as a different skill or using a different part of the brain. I also don't think the nature of LLMs being a negative crutch is new knowledge per se; when I was in school, calculus class required a graphing calcula…

Another case in point is that memorizing vocabularies and grammar, although could seem like an efficient way to learn a language, is incredibly unrewarding. I've been learning japanese from scratch, using only real speech to absorb new words, without using dictionaries and anything else much. The first feeling of reward came immediately when I learned that "arigatou" means thanks (although I terribly misheard how the…

How much hours would you estimate did you watch (I assume it was video, not just audio) in those years? What kind of material? Just curious.

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#165

Post by rudimentary_phy »

AI has been really interesting. I definitely feel its benefits when I want to cram some learning in. On the other hand, it has introduced a new and novel issue for me that feels an awful lot like imposter syndrome. This sounded like the same issue.

Perhaps we will now suffer from AI-mposter syndrome as well. Ain't life wonderful?

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#166

Post by smcleod »

Early on I wondered if things like this might happen.

But for me what has actually happened is almost the opposite, I seem to be experiencing more of a "tree of thoughts" with the ability to now perform rapid experimentation down a given branch, disposing branches that don't bare fruit.

I feel more liberated to explore creative thoughts than ever. I spend less time on the toil needed both bootstrap my thought process and to fending off cognitive dissonance when the feeling of sunk cost creeps in after going too deep down the wrong path.

I wonder if it's just perhaps a difference in how people explore and "complete" their thoughts? Or am I kidding myself and actually getting dumber and just fail to see it?

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#167

Post by layer8 »

johnisgood wrote: post #119
don_neufeld wrote: post #3

Completely agree. From all of my observations, the impact of LLMs on human thought quality appears largely corrosive. I’m very glad my kid’s school has hardcore banned them. In some class they only allow students to turn in work that was done in class, under the direct observation of the teacher. There has also been a significant increase in “on paper” work vs work done on computer. Lest you wonder “what does this gu…

You can learn a lot from LLMs though, same with, say, Wikipedia. You need curiosity. You need the desire to learn. If you do not have it, then of course you will get nowhere, LLMs or no LLMs.

From the article:

“The irony is that I now know more than I ever would have before AI. But I feel slightly dumber. A bit more dull. LLMs give me finished thoughts, polished and convincing, but none of the intellectual growth that comes from developing them myself. The output from AI answers questions. It teaches me facts. But it doesn’t really help me know anything new.”

I think the thesis is that with AI there is less need and incentive to “put the work in” instead of just consuming what the AI outputs, and that in consequence we do the needed work less and atrophy.

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#168

Post by smcleod »

JackFr wrote: post #136
zdragnar wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who has learned a second language can tell you that you aren't proficient just by memorizing vocabulary and grammar. Having a conversation and forming sentences on the fly just feels different- either as a different skill or using a different part of the brain. I also don't think the nature of LLMs being a negative crutch is new knowledge per se; when I was in school, calculus class required a graphing calcula…

Well I can extract a square root by hand. We all had to learn it and got tested on it. No one to day learns that anymore. The vast, vast majority have no idea and I don’t think people are dumber because of it. That is to say, I think it’s not cut-and-dried. I agree you need to learn something, but something’s it’s okay use a tool.

I very much agree with your sentiment here.

I tried to encapsulate that to some degree when writing something (perhaps poorly?) recently actually - https://smcleod.net/2025/03/the-democratisation-paradox-what...

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#169

Post by zdragnar »

JackFr wrote: post #136
zdragnar wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who has learned a second language can tell you that you aren't proficient just by memorizing vocabulary and grammar. Having a conversation and forming sentences on the fly just feels different- either as a different skill or using a different part of the brain. I also don't think the nature of LLMs being a negative crutch is new knowledge per se; when I was in school, calculus class required a graphing calcula…

Well I can extract a square root by hand. We all had to learn it and got tested on it. No one to day learns that anymore. The vast, vast majority have no idea and I don’t think people are dumber because of it. That is to say, I think it’s not cut-and-dried. I agree you need to learn something, but something’s it’s okay use a tool.

Comparing extracting a square root my hand is rather different in scope than reducing / simplifying equations entirely. The TI-92 could basically do all of your coursework for you up to college level, if memory serves.

The real question isn't "is it okay to use a tool" but "how does using a tool affect what you learn".

In the cases of both LLMs and symbolic solving calculators, I believe the answer is "highly detrimental".

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#170

Post by neom »

For me thinking is kinda like: First draft thought > thinking > 2nd draft thought > thoughtfulness > thought. I suspect a lot of people just need to adjust the frame of their thinking style, LLMs are useful for getting to a more "final thought" quickly, but he says "I can just shove a few sloppy words into a prompt and almost instantly get a fully reasoned, researched, and completed thought." - Indeed, to my mind anyway: a complete draft thought. From "when my brain spontaneously forms a tiny sliver of a potentially interesting concept or idea" to quality thought typically needs some meaningful time/walking around to gestate into ideas and things worth sharing anyway. LLMs for me are mostly either a) draft thoughts or b) pure work related knowledge transfer - and they work great for those things.
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