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Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

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Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#161

Post by jl6 »

hooverd wrote: post #117
armchairhacker wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's unfair to believe someone wants you dead just because of their origin. There are millions (probably tens of millions) of rural Southerners. Many don't want you dead, but vote red because they don't feel accommodated. Many vote blue. Moreover, when somebody grows up around people who hate a certain group, it's human nature that they'll also develop hatred. What do you do with those people? I believe the best…

Ok, what parts of rural Southern culture aren't being accommodated? The rural way of life is already insanely subsidized.

George W Bush spoke with an acquired (some may say feigned) accent that led his detractors to call him dubya. They probably thought it was just a funny way of disparaging a political opponent, but what the southern ear heard them say was “people who speak with this accent are dumb hicks and should be looked down upon”. That’s the thinnest end of a very big wedge of cultural stereotypes that underpin what is perceived as “liberal condescension towards the south”.

Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#162

Post by leereeves »

kogus wrote: post #132
kardianos wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They teach using proven methods, like phonics. They actually teach math. They test and use that as real information. They focus on results not on ideology. They do NOT encurage using Paulo Freire's "methods".

The article suggests that someone from Maine would be reluctant to ask Mississippi for advice, given the stereotypes and biases that all Americans have absorbed over the years. If the Maine Secretary of Education overcame his or her reluctance and did in fact ask Mississippi for advice, imagine their disappointment if the response was "we actually teach math". Do you have a source for your response? I'm genuinely cur…

> imagine their disappointment if the response was "we actually teach math"

And yet, looking at the chart in the article, that appears to be pretty much all there is to say.

Judging by results (based on the limited evidence in the article) Mississippi doesn't seem to be doing anything revolutionary. Their scores today are still significantly worse than Maine was in 2013.

The question we should be asking is "What is Maine doing wrong?" What caused their scores to decline precipitously since 2013?

Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#163

Post by [deleted] »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #69

This all feels a bit astroturfed. Is their increase in 4th grade student reading scores still there if you count the kids that they made resit grade 3 if they failed to meet literacy standards as 4th graders? I quickly skimmed a few reports and articles and the lack of clarity on that point makes me suspicious.

[deleted]

Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#164

Post by lolinder »

jobs_throwaway wrote: post #41
sepositus wrote: post #11

I'm still trying to pinpoint exactly why Oregon has some of the worst scores in the country (I believe it ranked dead-last this year when adjusted for socio-economic factors). When I see what's going on around me, I can only think it's somewhat related to broken family's and undisciplined kids. The stuff that my kids come home and tell me is happening in school is pretty mind blowing. I've also noticed a complete rev…

How do they look in terms of raw scores? Those are the rankings that matter.

No, those are the rankings that are immaterial to measuring the success of a school system.

Raw score rankings do not as a rule measure the output of schools, they measure the involvement of parents, which will always have a much larger impact on child outcomes than the schools do. Schools are an important marginal add-on that we want to make better, and in order to measure their value add we have to find ways to account for parental involvement and remove it as a factor. Socioeconomics is a passible proxy for involvement.

Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#165

Post by dmix »

Duwensatzaj wrote: post #153
ajross wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have kids in Oregon public schools. The schools themselves (in the sense of classroom education) are fine, for the most part. But education is very underfunded (especially relative to the tax base). So kids like mine do just fine, but anyone who needs outreach or extra support tends not to get it. That hurts badly on aggregate test scores, but not so much on college acceptance performance. So it's hard to correct,…

> education is very underfunded Wrong. https://www.wweek.com/news/schools/2025/02/05/dramatic-incre... > Students in Oregon saw their reading and math scores decline over a decade when the state’s spending on schools rose by 80%, an analysis by Georgetown University shows.

Another data point

> For decades, taxpayer spending on K-12 education has consistently increased, outpacing inflation by 2.5 times over the past 50 years. But while most people believe that more funding should lead to better outcomes for students, the evidence indicates that higher spending alone has had little impact on improving student achievement.

https://myelearningworld.com/us-educational-spending-50year-...

Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#166

Post by hooverd »

throwanem wrote: post #150
DangitBobby wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just not understanding your entire position, I guess. They are saying the overt racism is inexcusable and hating that ignorance makes sense to them. You are saying they grew up rich and so ... what exactly? They were also subtly racist? Or that if they were impoverished they would have been just as racist?

They're generalizing ignorantly from a very narrow slice of a culture, which they saw because that was the narrow slice in which their own family chose to participate, and proceeding to blame quite literally everyone else possible but themself and their parents for that entirely intentional choice. They have either failed to study sufficient history to find the error, or have done so and found the error preferable. N…

Growing up poor and white in Mississippi probably puts you on better footing than growing rich and white in Mississippi. The most vile racism I've seen from is from genteel folks who should "know better." They're not racist because they're ignorant. They're racist because they like to be. They enjoy their place on the hierarchy.

Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#167

Post by Kon-Peki »

motorest wrote: post #156
pc86 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, I think it points to a core educational policy difference between states. Some states will not fail a 3rd grader, and Mississippi will. This has an obvious impact on 4th grade scores, yes, but I'm willing to bet if you followed those "failed" 3rd graders in MS and compared to other states where they were pushed ahead, holding under-achieving students back is a net positive.

> (...) holding under-achieving students back is a net positive. Even if we assume that's the case, that's not the problem. The problem is that the school system fails to provide the necessary and sufficient services that would prevent a statistically significant number of 3rd graders from being held back. Feeling the need to hold kids back is a symptom of the problem, not a solution.

This way of thinking is how we end up with a ton of spending and not a ton of results.

I strongly suspect that Mississippi should be allocating more resources to education. But this is a political problem and the schools have nearly no say in whether the legislature does or does not increase funding.

So. Do we close down the schools and wait until it is resolved?

Or do the schools do the best they can with the resources they have? Do you have evidence that placing kids in the most skill-appropriate classroom is a worse use of available resources than placing them in the “correct” classroom based on age or previous cohort?

Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#168

Post by hooverd »

seabird wrote: post #37
api wrote: post #4

"Painting the Deep South as an embarrassing cultural backwater is one of the last socially acceptable forms of prejudice among elites. It’s not just tolerated - it’s venerated." Warning: possible flame bait, though I do not intend it this way. I am serious. I've had this thought for quite a while: the (social) left could pivot and win by being more woke. WTF? What I mean by this is: expand diversity and inclusion to…

They absolutely should be doing this but they're never going to. For a huge number of people, this is Team Blue vs Team Red. Those born-drunk fuckup hick racists are Team Red so their role in the game is to be a verbal punching bag. There's a very real chance that the Democrat demographic coalition collapses in our lifetime. The contempt so many commentators held for groups that "surprisingly" swung for Trump is pret…

It's a category error to think racists are ignorant people who don't know better and not people who actively enjoy their place in a racial hierarchy.

Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#169

Post by mcphage »

leereeves wrote: post #162
kogus wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article suggests that someone from Maine would be reluctant to ask Mississippi for advice, given the stereotypes and biases that all Americans have absorbed over the years. If the Maine Secretary of Education overcame his or her reluctance and did in fact ask Mississippi for advice, imagine their disappointment if the response was "we actually teach math". Do you have a source for your response? I'm genuinely cur…

> imagine their disappointment if the response was "we actually teach math" And yet, looking at the chart in the article, that appears to be pretty much all there is to say. Judging by results (based on the limited evidence in the article) Mississippi doesn't seem to be doing anything revolutionary. Their scores today are still significantly worse than Maine was in 2013. The question we should be asking is "What is M…

> And yet, looking at the chart in the article, that appears to be pretty much all there is to say.

The problem is, the Maine Secretary of Education would then reply “We actually teach math, also.”

Re: Mississippi Can't Possibly Have Good Schools

#170

Post by leereeves »

mcphage wrote: post #169
leereeves wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> imagine their disappointment if the response was "we actually teach math" And yet, looking at the chart in the article, that appears to be pretty much all there is to say. Judging by results (based on the limited evidence in the article) Mississippi doesn't seem to be doing anything revolutionary. Their scores today are still significantly worse than Maine was in 2013. The question we should be asking is "What is M…

> And yet, looking at the chart in the article, that appears to be pretty much all there is to say. The problem is, the Maine Secretary of Education would then reply “We actually teach math, also.”

Not nearly so well as they as they used to. What's changed?
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