“Fewer Users” Warning Hurting Specialized and New Apps • Hacker News Board

Re: “Fewer Users” Warning Hurting Specialized and New Apps

#161

Post by duskwuff » Fri, May 02, 2025, 8:51 PM UTC

redserk wrote: post #145

duskwuff wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some things are redundant - how many flashlight apps, weather apps, ChatGPT wrappers, etc are needed? For what it's worth, the wording Apple uses in their App Review Guidelines [1] is: > 4.3(b): Also avoid piling on to a category that is already saturated; the App Store has enough fart, burp, flashlight, fortune telling, dating, drinking games, and Kama Sutra apps, etc. already. We will reject these apps unless the…

I’ll give credit to Apple for formally writing a policy to this extent, but it’s disappointing. There’s always the risk of putting in a lot of time for an app that is genuinely unique but Apple may not think so. I’d much rather Apple let in junk apps but do more to promote curated lists of good apps. I like the “Editors Choice” section. I think it is generally a step in the right direction to surface decent apps. Plu…

For what it's worth, that bit of the policy was written early in the life of the App Store, when there really was a glut of low-effort novelty apps, particularly in the categories they mentioned, and when app discovery features in the store were more limited. It's probably not as necessary nowadays, but it does help guide developers away from writing apps which users are unlikely to find useful. (And if you've genuinely put in the effort to create something novel, it shouldn't be difficult to convince the reviewer of that - App Store review is a two-way street.)

Re: “Fewer Users” Warning Hurting Specialized and New Apps

#162

Post by crazygringo » Fri, May 02, 2025, 8:58 PM UTC

anilakar wrote: post #57

Our company just got a warning that we have sixty days to release something on Play or have our developer console account closed. The email made it pretty clear that Google wants developers to continuously push new versions to customers. We have no new features nor bug fixes in backlog. There is nothing to update. The only purpose of our software is to control hardware that our company makes. Nobody uses it for fun,…

Are you sure you don't rely on any third-party libraries that have been updated for security reasons? Are you sure there's no Android API being deprecated that you're still using?

I sympathize with the general idea that software that hasn't been updated in a long time is more likely to contain bugs and incompatibilities with newest OS versions. Whenever I've opened ancient apps on my iPhone or my Mac, they generally break either partially or entirely.

In your case I understand it might genuinely not need updates. But across the Play store as a whole, it seems like a largely beneficial policy. If there really aren't any dependencies that can/should be updated, surely you can make a tiny change to a text string somewhere, and get the added benefit of making sure your whole build chain still works? I get that it's annoying, but it really is valuable to weed out the truly unmaintained apps.

Re: “Fewer Users” Warning Hurting Specialized and New Apps

#163

Post by crazygringo » Fri, May 02, 2025, 9:01 PM UTC

kedean wrote: post #140

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a weird nuance to this just because algorithmically PageRank itself was even somewhat anti-competitive. "This page has fewer links to it than others, therefore it will be buried in search results" I think most people appreciated Google's early search algos that prioritized "well-traffic'd" sites and sources over others. Obviously that was a long time ago before SEO (and Google themselves) destroyed everything…

I always thought the idea there was that a website needed to grow organically before google would rank it highly, which makes sense to me. Prove yourself first by building a network, they aren't obligated to help out. The difference here is that the play store is the one and only way to get apps for a regular user. By putting that banner up, they're discouraging anyone from trying it even if they found out about it t…

I don't really see the difference.

The entire point is that you can find the app through other channels -- articles, posts, social media.

They just link to the Play store, but that's how you find them. The banner shouldn't be discouraging if you've come from a post that explains it's brand-new!

Re: “Fewer Users” Warning Hurting Specialized and New Apps

#164

Post by jonathanstrange » Fri, May 02, 2025, 9:10 PM UTC

theamk wrote: post #150

godelski wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if we talked about other computers like we talked about phones. It's just so weird - you can only install programs from our approved package manager - if you make any transactions through your program, we'll take a 30% cut - you can't be access those files, you're not root - you got root?! We're going to fucking sue you (yeah, I know about the PS3...) - you can't change these settings - you can't access that…

This only applies to iPhones, most Androids are rootable, and even un-rooted, it is trivial (I am mean really trivial, like 3 clicks) to install programs from outside of app store. My opinion is anyone who owns iPhone knows what they sign up for, and does not care. So I don't get your rant. - Do you own iPhone? Well, you've made your bed, now lie in it. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of phones on the market -…

These kind of barriers don't concern end users directly. They're just a huge pain point for developers, especially developers who don't make their software for commercial purposes only. The harder it is to develop, publish, and maintain an app, the less cool projects are being developed and the less innovation you get.

Nobody can quantify how much these practices stifle innovation because there are plenty of app developers and there is no comparison to how the app landscape would look if there were less barriers. Perhaps it's not a big deal but the fact is that nobody knows...

Re: “Fewer Users” Warning Hurting Specialized and New Apps

#165

Post by int_19h » Fri, May 02, 2025, 9:10 PM UTC

suddenexample wrote: post #34

A question for Googlers who may be responsible/adjacent - what is the intended function of this warning? It seems to be attempting to filter out low quality apps, but instead seems to be killing any attempt to change the status quo. If the app has fewer users than competing apps, the message Google is sending is "we don't need any new apps that do similar things to existing apps" and "if you're a small app, don't eve…

Speaking as a user, I do find that low number of downloads and reviews for an app strongly correlates with low quality and outright scams. The problem is that you have all those shops cranking out barely functioning apps for trivial things just to get into the listing and hopefully capture a few installs from users who don't have the time or the inclination to do proper vetting. And those apps are so pervasive that they drown out the genuinely useful and well-made new apps.

Re: “Fewer Users” Warning Hurting Specialized and New Apps

#166

Post by godelski » Fri, May 02, 2025, 9:11 PM UTC

theamk wrote: post #150

godelski wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if we talked about other computers like we talked about phones. It's just so weird - you can only install programs from our approved package manager - if you make any transactions through your program, we'll take a 30% cut - you can't be access those files, you're not root - you got root?! We're going to fucking sue you (yeah, I know about the PS3...) - you can't change these settings - you can't access that…

This only applies to iPhones, most Androids are rootable, and even un-rooted, it is trivial (I am mean really trivial, like 3 clicks) to install programs from outside of app store. My opinion is anyone who owns iPhone knows what they sign up for, and does not care. So I don't get your rant. - Do you own iPhone? Well, you've made your bed, now lie in it. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of phones on the market -…

  > most Androids are rootable

I don't have to wipe my computer to gain root nor distro hop.

  > So I don't get your rant.

I think you will if you understand my list of examples are non-exhaustive. Similarly if you are willing to admit that needing to hack your device is not a counter-example, it supports my point. I can also "jailbreak" an iPhone. I can install linux on it too. A circumvention method not being known for a current or specific generation is not a counter.

My point has nothing to do with what you "can" do. It has everything to do with the need for such efforts in the first place.

Re: “Fewer Users” Warning Hurting Specialized and New Apps

#167

Post by Marsymars » Fri, May 02, 2025, 9:11 PM UTC

0cf8612b2e1e wrote: post #109

throwaway743 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah interesting. Even so for like a small styling change?

A change is a change. I have certainly made a few “safe, meaningless, no possible way it could break something” edits which blew up in some unexpected way. Why take the risk for some inconsequential update? Someone has to sign off on why this commit needs to be fast tracked outside the normal process.

Almost any software I can think of has different processes for testing/validating changes depending on impact/priority.

e.g. I'm typing this on Firefox, which has a much different process for point release vs their 4-week release cycle.

Re: “Fewer Users” Warning Hurting Specialized and New Apps

#168

Post by Marsymars » Fri, May 02, 2025, 9:17 PM UTC

vineyardmike wrote: post #77

suddenexample wrote: post #34

A question for Googlers who may be responsible/adjacent - what is the intended function of this warning? It seems to be attempting to filter out low quality apps, but instead seems to be killing any attempt to change the status quo. If the app has fewer users than competing apps, the message Google is sending is "we don't need any new apps that do similar things to existing apps" and "if you're a small app, don't eve…

> we don't need any new apps that do similar things to existing apps" I’m not a “Googler who may be responsible”, but my understanding is that Apple does this too… and Google App Store has a reputation for being lower quality. I assume it’s because unoriginal apps at some point are just “polluting” the market and making it harder to find higher quality products. Which is generally what users want. Some things are red…

> I’m not a “Googler who may be responsible”, but my understanding is that Apple does this too… and Google App Store has a reputation for being lower quality.

It doesn't help much for Apple. You can search for pretty much anything on the App Store and get at best a handful of useful results, followed by page after page of complete dreck.

Re: “Fewer Users” Warning Hurting Specialized and New Apps

#169

Post by int_19h » Fri, May 02, 2025, 9:17 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #89

This article and the comments here are kind of scary. It feels like Google's only supporting apps that "drive engagement". That sounds like they want to force developers into producing stuff they can show ads in because they need more ads, not like they need more apps. It also feels a bit like how software people STILL haven't figured out how to deal with a product that has a finite development cycle. Which is to say…

> It also feels a bit like how software people STILL haven't figured out how to deal with a product that has a finite development cycle. Which is to say, a piece of code that is done and doesn't need any changes.

The problem is that platforms these days are in a constant state of slow rug pull. Even if you have absolutely no bugs to fix and no new features to add, you still need to keep things updated just to make it work on the most recent version of the platform (which users are going to be on because that's the only one that receives security fixes). A slightly less damning case is when the app works but doesn't integrate well with the new parts of the platform, or even just its changing look and feel. E.g. old Windows apps often work fine but don't support hi-DPI properly, meaning that they look very ugly on that 4K display.

I don't think it's a problem that can be fully solved, but the impact would be much less severe if platforms stopped churn for the sake of churn. For example, we don't need a "fresh new" UI redesign every 3 years. And when it comes to API stability, Win32 should be considered the exemplary model of that - yes, it is a lot of effort to keep things working 30 years after they first shipped, but that's the only way if we don't want to be an industry that's constantly building castles on sand.

Re: “Fewer Users” Warning Hurting Specialized and New Apps

#170

Post by Marazan » Fri, May 02, 2025, 9:19 PM UTC

This is the same thinking by Google that has ruined the web as everyone chases the perfect SEO optimised page.

A page that presents and answer to your problem in the first sentence as soon as you open the page? Low engagement time, high bounce rate down rank. A page that buries the not actually an answer under 1500 words and 4 images? Perfect page, up rank.