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You wouldn't steal a font

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Re: You wouldn't steal a font

#161

Post by tptacek »

gkoberger wrote: post #160
tptacek wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, those things aren't comparable. Truffles have a functional role in a dish. A typeface does not have a meaningful functional role in a document, compared to the high-quality freely-available alternatives. This is like complaining about some kind of specially-carved or dyed truffle.

I respect you a ton (genuinely, I think you're the most interesting writer in the tech space), but you have a profound misunderstanding of the importance of typography if you think the only reason you'd need a paid typeface is the same reason you'd need a Hermes bag. I know you're a curious person, so hopefully you take this as an opportunity to open your horizons on the importance of it.

I'm a typeface nerd. Bringhurst is one of 3 books on the end-table next to me right now. I spend a stupid amount of money for Hoefler fonts for my dumb blog.

This to me is like the Menswear Guy on Twitter, who will explain in very great detail to you why the Hermès product is significantly better than the generic alternative. He's right, but he also understands that you buy the Hermès product to make a statement. Spend money on that statement if you want --- I do --- but don't try to pretend you have a right to it.

(i don't mean i own any hermes products; just stupidly expensive typefaces)

Re: You wouldn't steal a font

#162

Post by wubrr »

vFunct wrote: post #149
jeremyjh wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You think games would feel as immersive if everything was Calibri? What computer are you buying that only has one font? There are dozens of fonts, covering all kinds of styles, on every desktop sold.

Very few system fonts are any good. Would you use Arial instead of Helvetica Neue? I certainly wouldn't. Put two posters side-by-side and you'd notice the Helvetica one as looking more professional, even without any design background. Additionally, very few system fonts include all the weights. Fonts aren't just come in a single weight. The font you use for a giant page-filling title is generally skinnier than the fo…

> Very few system fonts are any good.

An obviously false statement which you can't possibly back up.

> Would you use Arial instead of Helvetica Neue? I certainly wouldn't. Put two posters side-by-side and you'd notice the Helvetica one as looking more professional, even without any design background.

First of all that's just completely your own subjective opinion. Second, there are many other free sans-serif fonts out there to choose from (examples[1]).

> Good design creates a reaction, such as causing you to buy something or interacting more with something or whatever

'Design' can encompass many things, but can you show me some data that backs up your claim that slight differences in fonts will make a difference in product quality/performance/revenue/etc? Because I have seen a loooot of data that says it's almost always completely irrelevant.

[1] https://fonts.google.com/?categoryFilters=Sans+Serif:%2FSans...

Re: You wouldn't steal a font

#163

Post by wubrr »

gkoberger wrote: post #154
wubrr wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is using some of the thousands of freely available fonts out there even remotely the same as using Calibri for everything? You're making absurd comparisons and not being sincere.

No, I think we're just looking at it from different perspectives. Yes, most people are fine choosing from the fonts available on their computer when writing a document. But that's not what me nor OP are talking about. We're talking about shipping software (like a mobile app), or publishing a blog post. In that case, the best you can specify is either a very common font (Helvetica, etc), or a high-level classification…

> There are many free fonts out there, yes, but there's a reason they're free.

Go on and tell me what that reason is then. Are you also going to tell me free open-source software, like Linux is low-quality because its free?

> The quality for a majority of them is significantly lower

Again, a completely baseless, unprovable assertion.

> You don't have to agree, but I'm not being absurd or lacking sincerity.

What do you call your example of using Calibri for everything in response to someone suggesting the use of free fonts?

You are lacking sincerity and making absurd claims. Almost everything else you say is literally baseless rhetoric that you are unable to back up with data or any objective argument.

> there's thousands of books about the importance of typography if you're curious to learn more.

It's amazing that you apparently know of thousands of such books, but are unable to make one coherent, objective argument to back up your claims.... did you read them?

Re: You wouldn't steal a font

#164

Post by tallytarik »

rglover wrote: post #94

I would happily pay for any font if I could get individual weights for say $5-$10 and entire families for $20-100 with any usage I want (print, web, etc). I feel like font foundries would print money this way. But for most projects, $300+ for a nice family (that can only be used in a hyper-specific context) is just insane when many free or cheaper alternatives exist. Used to waste time and money with foundry stuff un…

I suspect they are printing more money with the 1-10 megacorps who can afford to pay millions of dollars for per-eyeballs licenses.

Re: You wouldn't steal a font

#165

Post by tptacek »

vFunct wrote: post #149
jeremyjh wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You think games would feel as immersive if everything was Calibri? What computer are you buying that only has one font? There are dozens of fonts, covering all kinds of styles, on every desktop sold.

Very few system fonts are any good. Would you use Arial instead of Helvetica Neue? I certainly wouldn't. Put two posters side-by-side and you'd notice the Helvetica one as looking more professional, even without any design background. Additionally, very few system fonts include all the weights. Fonts aren't just come in a single weight. The font you use for a giant page-filling title is generally skinnier than the fo…

This is just clearly wrong. Even Georgia and Verdana are very serious works of typography. The Cleartype fonts hold their own against modern text faces. San Francisco and New York are also obviously strong fonts. These are gigantic companies that take typography seriously, they can easily afford to invest in competent system fonts, and they both obviously have.

Re: You wouldn't steal a font

#166

Post by snypher »

ars wrote: post #85
codedokode wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this fair? It actually takes a lot of work (I assume) to design letter's shapes. Of course, not counting those who just trace 16-th century font without paying a compensation.

> takes a lot of work The "sweat of the brow" argument is not valid in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweat_of_the_brow

>Under the Feist ruling in the US, mere collections of facts are considered unoriginal and thus not protected by copyright, no matter how much work went into collating them.

This person isn't just collecting existing letter shapes; inventing a new letter shapes would be protected by copyright?

Re: You wouldn't steal a font

#167

Post by floriankarsten »

teruakohatu wrote: post #74
nickff wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am of the opinion that the licenses for fonts in software are too expensive, but why is the pricing ‘backwards’? Book publishers don’t make a lot of profit, while software developers do.

> Book publishers don’t make a lot of profit, while software developers do. Do you have a citation for that? Printing a book costs just about nothing, it’s astonishingly cheap to print a quality book in volume. Author royalties are not that high (I suppose famous authors whose name alone sell books is another story), then you have retail margins and overhead. The top three book publishers’ have sales in the low billi…

[dead]

Re: You wouldn't steal a font

#168

Post by tptacek »

gkoberger wrote: post #138
shermantanktop wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admire your passion, but... as someone who is not deeply interested in fonts, I view them in largely functional terms. Can I read it? Does it look ok? Programming language choice has an aesthetic side, but it is also very much a functional concern. Can I write secure code? Will it be performant? Will it be maintainable? Different languages represent different functional tradeoffs. Are fonts really the same kind of…

Arial v Helvetica is an interesting example, because Arial was designed basically as a cost-efficient alternative to Helvetica. So, the reason you'd choose between the two is exactly the thing the original comment was complaining about – licensing! They were designed to be metrically compatible... meaning, the character widths and spaces are exactly the same. This means that switching to Arial won't affect the layout…

Yes. Arial is bad. But Microsoft shifted away from Arial more than 20 years ago.

Re: You wouldn't steal a font

#169

Post by snypher »

gus_massa wrote: post #118
cyberpunk wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember trying to explain to some colleagues why I paid about 100 bucks for the font I use and why I wouldn’t share it with them and they just couldn’t get it. (It’s Berkeley mono). I don’t even know how many glyphs it is (it’s thousands) but for something I’m looking at for 6-8 hours a day, every single day and is the absolute peak of perfection (at least to me), 100 bucks seems like a fucking bargain to me. shru…

> Berkeley Mono Link for the lazy https://neil.computer/notes/berkeley-mono-font-variant-popul...

And ofc there was a HN discussion;

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38322793

Re: You wouldn't steal a font

#170

Post by tptacek »

luckylion wrote: post #142
tptacek wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is maybe nothing in the entire world that I am less sympathetic towards than the cause of font piracy / font liberation. You have perfectly good --- in fact, historically excellent --- fonts loaded by default for free on any computer you buy today. Arguing for the oppression of font licenses is, to me, like arguing about how much it costs to buy something at Hermès. Just don't shop at Hermès.

Do you consider fonts largely useless, overpriced and primarily directed at customers who seek to display status symbols? Because that's the analogy, I'm not sure I agree. But the prices are off the charts, and it's the usual private-equity buying up the competition & their IP and then squeezing as much as they can. Not sure why that's worth rooting for.

Hermès sells a $5000 wallet.
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