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Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

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Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#161

Post by fvdessen »

gertrunde wrote: post #125

I would like to think there there is a solution that can be engineered, in which a service is able to verify that a user is above an appropriate age threshold, while maintaining privacy safeguards, including, where relevant, for the age-protected service not to be privy to the identity of the user, and for the age verification service to not be privy to the nature of the age-protected service being accessed. In this…

The problem is who pays to maintain the system. There are systems that allow you to share your age anonymously (among other things) and they’re already widely used in Europe but the system knows what you’re using it for since the second party pays for the information, and some accounting info is needed for the billing. It would be completely illegal for the system to use that info for anything else though.

Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#162

Post by whall6 »

Edmond wrote: post #148
blibble wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

interesting idea... how do you handle revocation when people inevitably start certifying false information?

The app allows for self-revocation using the private key or a revocation code given when cert is issued, this is useful if a certificate is compromised...there is also an admin interface a trust anchor can use to revoke certificates they issue, a rogue trust anchor chain can also be revoked.

Who is the entity that has the ability to revoke the certificate?

Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#163

Post by stult »

m463 wrote: post #153
gertrunde wrote: post #125

I would like to think there there is a solution that can be engineered, in which a service is able to verify that a user is above an appropriate age threshold, while maintaining privacy safeguards, including, where relevant, for the age-protected service not to be privy to the identity of the user, and for the age verification service to not be privy to the nature of the age-protected service being accessed. In this…

A humorous age verification quiz for the Leisure Suit Larry game. My boss is a. a jerk. b. a total jerk. c. an absolute total jerk. d. responsible for my paycheck. Correct answer: d. dated, and very politically incorrect... https://allowe.com/games/larry/tips-manuals/lsl1-age-quiz.ht... (scroll down past answers to questions and answers)

I'd say all of the above but my boss is very forgiving of me. It helps that I am self-employed.

Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#164

Post by stego-tech »

A long, long time ago (within the past ten years), I had to verify my age with a site. They didn't ask for my ID, or my facial scan, but instead asked for my credit card number. They issued a refund to the card of a few cents, and I had to tell them (within 24hr) how much the refund was for, after which point they'd issue a charge to claw it back. They made it clear that debit and gift cards would not be accepted, it must be a credit card. So I grabbed my Visa card, punched in the numbers, checked my banking app to see the +$0.24 refund, entered the value, got validated, and had another -$0.24 charge to claw it back.

Voila, I was verified as an adult, because I could prove I had a credit card.

The whole point of mandating facial recognition or ID checks isn't to make sure you're an adult, but to keep records of who is consuming those services and tie their identities back to specific profiles. Providers can swear up and down they don't retain that information, but they often use third-parties who may or may not abide by those same requests, especially if the Gov comes knocking with a secret warrant or subpoena.

Biometric validation is surveillance, plain and simple.

Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#165

Post by blibble »

Edmond wrote: post #148
blibble wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

interesting idea... how do you handle revocation when people inevitably start certifying false information?

The app allows for self-revocation using the private key or a revocation code given when cert is issued, this is useful if a certificate is compromised...there is also an admin interface a trust anchor can use to revoke certificates they issue, a rogue trust anchor chain can also be revoked.

how does rogue anchor revocation in practice?

say if an anchor has issued tens of thousands of legitimate ids, and also ten to career fraudsters who gave them $10000 each

as you've outsourced the trust you have no idea which are legitimate, and if you revoke the lot you're going to have a lot of refunds to issue

(ultimately this is why countries only allow people who can be banned from their profession to certify documents)

Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#166

Post by jen729w »

stego-tech wrote: post #164

A long, long time ago (within the past ten years), I had to verify my age with a site. They didn't ask for my ID, or my facial scan, but instead asked for my credit card number. They issued a refund to the card of a few cents, and I had to tell them (within 24hr) how much the refund was for, after which point they'd issue a charge to claw it back. They made it clear that debit and gift cards would not be accepted, it…

> Biometric validation is surveillance, plain and simple.

Eh. It's just easier and cheaper. I'll bet Discord has outsourced this to one of those services that ask you for a face scan when you sign up to [some other service].

Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#167

Post by ndriscoll »

stego-tech wrote: post #164

A long, long time ago (within the past ten years), I had to verify my age with a site. They didn't ask for my ID, or my facial scan, but instead asked for my credit card number. They issued a refund to the card of a few cents, and I had to tell them (within 24hr) how much the refund was for, after which point they'd issue a charge to claw it back. They made it clear that debit and gift cards would not be accepted, it…

That was, in fact, what COPA mandated in the US in 1998, and SCOTUS struck it down as too onerous in Ashcroft v. American Civil Liberties Union, kicking off the last 20 years of essentially completely unregulated Internet porn commercially available to children with nothing more than clicking an "I'm 18" button. At the time, filtering was seen as a better solution. Nowadays filtering is basically impossible thanks to TLS (with things like DoH and ECH being deployed to lock that down even further), apps that ignore user CAs and use attestation to lock out owner control, cloud CDNs, TLS fingerprinting, and extreme consolidation of social media (e.g. discord being for both minecraft discussions and furry porn).

Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#168

Post by nixpulvis »

Identity verification remains unsolved and likely will remain that way. Any attempts at improvement are authoritarian. And the status quo leave massive room for circumvention.

Personally, I grew up in an era before there was any expectation of validation, and enjoyed the anonymity of message boards and forums. But when people are posting blatantly illegal activity online, I can see the appeal for more validation. Just makes me sad.

Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#169

Post by chatmasta »

stego-tech wrote: post #164

A long, long time ago (within the past ten years), I had to verify my age with a site. They didn't ask for my ID, or my facial scan, but instead asked for my credit card number. They issued a refund to the card of a few cents, and I had to tell them (within 24hr) how much the refund was for, after which point they'd issue a charge to claw it back. They made it clear that debit and gift cards would not be accepted, it…

Is card verification a lesser form of surveillance? And there’s a good chance your card issuer (or your bank, one hop away from it) has your biometrics anyway.

I don’t like either of them… (And why does YouTube ask me to verify my age when I’m logged into a Google account I created in 2004?)

Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#170

Post by extraduder_ire »

nicbou wrote: post #108
nyanpasu64 wrote: post #98

Frankly I'm scared by governments and corporations going "papers, please" for people to be allowed to access the Internet. On top of endangering privacy by tying pseudonymous online interactions to real-life ID and biometrics, attempts to block under-18 people from finding information or interacting online will only amplify how society regards them as not having rights. This will isolate people (especially gay and tr…

To add to this, some people might be left out because companies are not financially incentivised to verify them. In Germany, immigrants struggle to open a bank account because the banks require documents that they don't have (and that they can hardly get with a bank account). Russian, Iranian and Syrian citizens have a particularly hard time finding a bank that works for them. The most common video document verificat…

What is it about some Indian passports? Do they need to have a biometric chip to work? (just checked, and those were introduced in 2024)

Banks worldwide regularly refuse service to people who have US citizenship, so I don't think you're far off on that point.

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