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North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

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161–170 of 171 posts

Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#161
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Australians can be legally compelled in secret courts to install backdoors in the companies in which they are employed, and gagged from telling the company itself or any journalists (see the Access and Assistance Bill). My thoughts on this as an Australian software engineer: how could they possibly “order” me to “install a backdoor”? To change a production system, I need an issue in the issue tracker, I need a PR,…

I suppose you'd do it the same way any North Korean operative would. They'd offer you training on how to bypass the controls. They'd get you to exfiltrate the code and the product roadmap. They'd have someone more skilled suggest a plausible backdoor as part of an innocent change, like the xzutils one. As for how they'd force you, just like any intelligence agency, they'd start with carrots. They'd offer you money, o…

> I suppose you'd do it the same way any North Korean operative would.

What you are describing here is something any country could do – yes, it is conceivable that Australia's intelligence agencies could use bribery/harassment/threats/blackmail/etc to turn Australian citizens into unwilling spies – but the same is true of the UK, the US, France, Germany, whatever.

The thing that people are calling out Australia over, is a law which says a court can order someone to install a secret backdoor, and furthermore order them not to tell (almost) anyone about it. [0] And I'm sceptical that law could be used in the way you describe – e.g. "They'd offer you training on how to bypass the controls" – the law says a court can order you to install a backdoor – it doesn't say it can order you to attend a training course on how to "bypass controls".

Keep in mind, while proceedings are under seal, you are allowed to retain a lawyer, and your lawyer can make legal arguments before the judge, and can appeal the judge's rulings. IANAL, but would a judge rule that a power to order someone to install a backdoor extends to ordering them to attend a government-run training course on how to deceive their employer? Even if a judge did rule that way, would the appellate courts uphold the ruling?

Or, similarly – "They'd get you to exfiltrate the code and the product roadmap" – does a legal power to order someone to install a backdoor, extend to a legal power to order them to hand over generalised confidential information of their employer? Or similarly – "They'd have you do very innocent, justifiable things at first" – does a legal power to order someone to install a backdoor, extend to a legal power to order them to do "very innocent, justifiable things" which don't in themselves directly contribute to installing any backdoor?

And, as I said, if your lawyer can't talk the court out of it – resign. Will a judge hold that a judicial power to order to the installation of a backdoor extends to ordering a person not to resign their job?

Get a medical certificate saying you can't work. Get yourself admitted to a private psychiatric hospital on the grounds that the stress of this secret government order has caused you to have a nervous breakdown / panic episode / suicidal ideation / etc. (I think if I ever were issued such a secret government order, it really would have that kind of extreme detrimental impact on my mental health, I wouldn't be faking it.) I think a lot of psychologists/psychiatrists/etc would be very sympathetic to your plight. What's a judge supposed to do if they have a psychiatrist testifying that you are medically unfit to comply with the order, or return to the job which the order is associated with?

[0] You are explicitly allowed to tell your personal legal counsel.

Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#162
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, there it is, “Western chauvinism,” the all-purpose dismissal when you’ve got no real counterargument. You’re not engaging with what I said, you’re just performing indignation. Yes, I’ve seen videos, read books, listened to defectors, and followed reports from Amnesty, the UN, and others. You? You’re just here to sneer at the idea that anyone outside North Korea could possibly know anything. That’s not humility, i…

>Ah, there it is, “Western chauvinism,” the all-purpose dismissal when you’ve got no real counterargument. You’re not engaging with what I said, you’re just performing indignation. Gotta call a spade a spade sometimes, sorry bud. >Yes, I’ve seen videos, read books, listened to defectors, and followed reports from Amnesty, the UN, and others. You? You’re just here to sneer at the idea that anyone outside North Korea c…

> I never even defended them. Just pointed out your ignorance and racism. Cheers. Nice edit btw.

This refers to the edit that the sibling comment made from:

> Thank you for finally bringing your silly antics to a conclusion.

To adding four more sentences (ending with “We have decades ...”). Which seemed weird given that the first sentence was thanking OP here for bringing the “antics” to an end.

And apparently OP then made an edit in kind.

Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#163
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously comparing Australia to... North Korea?

It is a comparison between a North Korean practise to an apparently similar Australian practise. The ideology each state has nothing to do with the risk coming from employing people who can be compelled to follow such rules.

> The ideology each state has nothing to do with the risk coming from employing people who can be compelled to follow such rules

What? You can't be serious. Of course the state ideology impacts the risk of the state acting ideologically.

Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except Tibet was part of China before westerns divorced it from China. I dunno why but I think I'm gonna trust people who used to be the victims of colonial domination and looting over the recidivist offenders of the said colonial domination and looting when it comes to Asian history. Also NK is a Chinese protectorate as much as the USA is a Republic.

I should probably just drop this, but I'm genuinely curious. Why do you think the USA isn't a republic?

Because the way the US treats other nations. For most of its history, it has been a war. It bullies other nations, interfere in their democratic process, when it doesn't invade them, or suspend their constitution or fund fascist paramilitary death squads to destabilise them. It could strike and annihilate Denmark tomorrow; a lot of Americans would cheer.

The US is very similar to the french Empire after the 1st Republic. It cloaks itself under the name of Republic, but isn't one itself. It's an evil country ran by evil people. The only difference is that Americans get to chose the Emperor every 4 years, whilst knowing no matter who is in charge, very little will change.

Of course its people aren't inherently evil or anything. But the propaganda is intense and permanent, so Americans unfortunately behave like little emperors themselves. This applies to most of Europe too, naturally.

That's why sometimes, I wish to pray to a higher power to spread class consciousness to the whole masses of America and Europe, but am also aware I'm part of the issue, and that it's wishful thinking.

Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it’s not true. https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about-us/our-portfolios/natio...

It is. The actual text of the law makes it very clear and it has been discussed a lot. That Home Affairs webpage that tries to spin it is yet another disturbing sign.

Fair enough!

Linking to some credible sources to refute the official statement would be appropriate to further the discussion and educate the curious! :-)

Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#167
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a comparison between a North Korean practise to an apparently similar Australian practise. The ideology each state has nothing to do with the risk coming from employing people who can be compelled to follow such rules.

Surprising we have so many NK sympathizers here. We have decades of reporting for different groups and yet here we are defending NK and calling folks racists.

I do not sympathize with NK at all, they are monsters.

What I am surprised about is that the same people who criticized other countries for doing X will not criticize their own/allied country doing a variation of X. I believe that we in the free West have a duty to keep our democrackes and we do that by not copying rules from the like of North Korea and by not constantly creating tools that help abolishing the division of powers.

That means when I critique Australia for that law I do so on the moral ground that Australia should know better, while North Korea is more or less openly evil.

I am a big fan of fixing our own problems instead of pointing elsewhere where it is even worse.

But I learned that there is a big group of people who think that pointing out that there is dog shit on the carpet makes you somehow a traiter and not someone who wants to live in a country without dogshit on the carpet.

Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legitimate? You do realize it's illegal to hire NK workers in most civilized countries?

Spy agencies lying? Unthinkable!

That's beside the point. My point is that there are no legitimate NK employees.

Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should gather my thoughts and focus my statement now that I recalled why I made it to begin with. I was really mostly curious specifically why you were so certain about the “lifetime of propaganda” and what it can do to the mind. Being a closed society we don’t have access to North Koreans to just talk to. You have defectors who are outliers. Secondly, taking the statement about the propaganda at face value, the ne…

You write a novel to say “we can’t really know,” then act like that’s some brave intellectual stance. It’s not. It’s just a way to dodge moral clarity. Defectors are “outliers”? Of course they are—it’s a police state. That’s how tyranny works. You don’t get a representative sample when dissent gets you killed. You’re not offering insight. You’re drowning basic truths in a flood of words to avoid saying anything with…

You’re going on about moral clarity and cowardice, dodging any real arguments that could be had. This is just obfuscation and relativism (but NK is worse than X). There have been concrete counter-arguments to the narrative in the OP. It doesn’t matter if the head of state of NK has killed more people than Genghis Khan.

There’s also no point in fretting about cowardice. Critiquing a poor Asian country from an apartment in Europe/America/South America won’t get you harmed.

Re: North Korean IT workers have infiltrated the Fortune 500

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A flagged post mentions this is racist and typical anti immigration rhetoric. > That's not true, there are only two types of North Korean people you'll meet, [...] Well I see a contradiction here.

Whether it is correct or not (I don’t know), that statement was based on current apparent (again, correct?) political realities, not ethnicity or race.

"There are only two types of North Koreans you will meet. One with odd numbers of hair and one with an even number."

Being correct or not is not the point.

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