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After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

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Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#161
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can just speak for myself, but I wouldn't be employable after a layoff like that... I't get a mental meltdown and afterwards would probably be on disability until I got mentally better. They're literally teaching thausands of people that they aren't reliable and can't be trusted. I mean, if that's what you're aiming for, good for you, but I'd recon that you'll end up with more people that want your head now than befo…

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And how are they going to do that without social services, hmm?

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#162
post #11

Is there any proof that they're coding errors? A simpler explanation, to me at least, is that they first blanket fired people by dubious criteria, and are now using this as an excuse to backpedal when they realize they've cut something important.

Non partisan take, in every circumstance coding errors are a euphemism for “leadership is humiliated by the outcome and wants to shirk responsibility”.

Seen this real-life: management ask for some unannounced change on prices. Everyone in IT tells them "this is gonna backfire fast". No way to budge them on it so we apply. A couple hours later support and sales are getting hammered by unhappy clients so we get to rollback as fast as possible. The official excuse? "That's an error from IT".

Nope, the code worked perfectly and did what was asked of it.

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#163
post #139

The obvious methodology at work here is 'fire everyone then hopefully re-hire only what is blindingly obviously needed'. There are many, many problems with this approach in a business setting but even more from a governmental setting. The first, and what should be obvious to anyone with an ounce of empathy, is that these are real people who's lives are being toyed with. It isn't like you are trying out a new business…

> The first, and what should be obvious to anyone with an ounce of empathy, is that these are real people who's lives are being toyed with. It isn't like you are trying out a new business process. You are literally playing with entire lives here as if they are disposable things. This alone makes what is happening inhumane. This makes no sense. It is not a life, it is a job. The person isn't dead. They get a generous…

I mostly agree with your position. However there are a couple of issues that make federal government work distinct from ordinary business.

1. Fired federal workers typically do not get a severance. Those impacted by the recent reductions in force are not receiving severance packages.

2. Government salaries are usually uncompetitive compared to the private sector; the major difference is the value of the pension. Leaving government service early results in a low pension; the pension is usually only worth it after 20 years of service and if one leaves federal service close to retirement age, to max out the "high-3" pension basis.

3. Because federal jobs are partially a stimulus effort to state economies, workers will have relocated to a region where there is no other employer in their field. Relocation will be necessary to find another job. This is less of a factor for the private sector, where workers typically move to locations where multiple employers offer jobs for their field.

A necessary set of reforms will be to simultaneously a.) raise federal salaries to market rate, b.) replace pension contributions with 401k matching, c.) reduce roadblocks for performance firings for tenured employees, and d.) consolidate contractors into federal employment.

Part of the reason federal employment is inflexible is due to the comparatively low income for many fields; mid-career employees have a low incentive for joining. Likewise, the barrier to leaving early is high due to the sunk cost of the pension. A tenured employee with reduced productivity is difficult to remove. Due to the pension obligations, the government is forced to use contractors to fill out the workforce. Contracting companies often take 50% overhead just to have someone doing the same job as a federal employee.

Such a policy change would take substantial bipartisan cooperation, so it's unlikely to be done in the current political environment.

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#164
post #11

Is there any proof that they're coding errors? A simpler explanation, to me at least, is that they first blanket fired people by dubious criteria, and are now using this as an excuse to backpedal when they realize they've cut something important.

The article somewhat buries the facts but a couple of important ones: - They were able to get them reinstated within 24 hours. - A presentation seen by Science said the overall NIH RIF (reduction in force) was based on administrative codes and that some “may not have been intentional.”

> but a couple of important ones

If this was the first "mistake" made by the new administration and DOGE, then these items would be understandable. Or the second mistake. Or the third, maybe.

This is intentional. That is the only conclusion one can draw now. From the terseness of the letters of dismissal to the unreliability of the message ('you're fired! Wait, no you're not!'), one can only assume this is part of the destruction of democratic institutions that the current administration is pursuing.

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are proximate causes and there are the real causes. Yes, HHS let them go, but the reality is DOGE told HHS to cut them.

The article states: > "It’s unclear to what extent the employee lists used in the RIFs were influenced by the Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) .."

The lack of transparency around DOGE is a feature.

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#166
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can just speak for myself, but I wouldn't be employable after a layoff like that... I't get a mental meltdown and afterwards would probably be on disability until I got mentally better. They're literally teaching thausands of people that they aren't reliable and can't be trusted. I mean, if that's what you're aiming for, good for you, but I'd recon that you'll end up with more people that want your head now than befo…

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> 8 month severance package

Is there any reporting of employees who actually received this, or are you referring to nebulous promise in the "Fork In the Road" email?

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#167

The obvious methodology at work here is 'fire everyone then hopefully re-hire only what is blindingly obviously needed'. There are many, many problems with this approach in a business setting but even more from a governmental setting. The first, and what should be obvious to anyone with an ounce of empathy, is that these are real people who's lives are being toyed with. It isn't like you are trying out a new business…

Anyone with half a brain understands the argument you put forward, and there is not a single doubt on my mind that the current administration does. But the point is not the savings. The point is incapacitating the government to the point where privatization starts to looks like a viable alternative. This has been the strategy since Thatcher and Reagan, look up "starving the beast". This administration is just really good at it.

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#168
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, it's completely destroying an incredibly valuable asset: The reputation of being a stable long-term employer! (This is possibly their corrupt intent.) The immediate "savings" reduced workforce (even assuming the same level of work gets done) can easily be obliterated by the long-term damage of needing to pay more to attract equally-qualified applicants away from the private sector. Some quick napkin-math just t…

Do we actually want "I just want a stable job" people being a significant part of the federal governments workforce? I generally wouldn't want those people to work for my company, so not sure why I'd want them to work in my government.

> Money is not the point of a government.

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#169

> A computer can never be held accountable, therefore a computer must never make a management decision. It was true in 1979, it's true today. Blaming "coding" for this is an explicit admission that someone is shirking their accountability.

At least they only got fired. Not prosecuted for fraud like the British postal service: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal

> In all, between 1999 and 2015, over 900 subpostmasters were prosecuted and 236 went to prison.

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#170
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can just speak for myself, but I wouldn't be employable after a layoff like that... I't get a mental meltdown and afterwards would probably be on disability until I got mentally better. They're literally teaching thausands of people that they aren't reliable and can't be trusted. I mean, if that's what you're aiming for, good for you, but I'd recon that you'll end up with more people that want your head now than befo…

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