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Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

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Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#161

Post by tonyhart7 »

propagandist wrote: post #105
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were at a protest that was starting to get a bit rowdy and somebody used one of these on you, what would you do? I'd either come back prepared for actual violence, or switch from protest to sabotage. It just screams "escalation" to me.

And that is possibly the aim. When the protests turn into violence or sabotage, the state uses that to justify its own violent repression.

so you saying if there are violence or sabotage, you let these people do it??? how can that be better

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#162

Post by lurk2 »

_heimdall wrote: post #152
killjoywashere wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) (a follow-on to the 1925 "Geneva Convention") allows for the use of riot control agents (like tear gas) for law enforcement purposes. https://www.opcw.org/our-work/what-chemical-weapon

I think that's inline with what the point the GP was trying to make. Tear gas would otherwise fall into the definition of a weapon that would violate the Geneva Convention if not for the specific earmark that its okay for law enforcement to use it. Its a bit of a logical loop based only on definitions. Its not against the convention because the law includes the exception, but the exception otherwise goes against the…

> As explained in the military manual of the Netherlands, the prohibition of the use of riot control agents as a method of warfare is inspired by the fact that use of tear gas, for example, in armed conflict “runs the danger of provoking the use of other more dangerous chemicals”. A party which is being attacked by riot control agents may think it is being attacked by deadly chemical weapons and resort to the use of chemical weapons. It is this danger of escalation that States sought to avert by agreeing to prohibit the use of riot control agents as a method of warfare in armed conflict. This motivation is equally valid in international and non-international armed conflicts.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule75

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#163

Post by s1artibartfast »

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #73
tonyhart7 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the only acceptable condition to use it maybe if there are riot or violence breakout in that area not for peaceful protest

If you were at a protest that was starting to get a bit rowdy and somebody used one of these on you, what would you do? I'd either come back prepared for actual violence, or switch from protest to sabotage. It just screams "escalation" to me.

yes, it is an escalation.

Governance is maintaining public support for the government having a monopoly on violent escalation.

If the government does not have this power, then any person has an individual veto over the rest of the country.

Laws are used to describe how and when individuals can protest.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#164

Post by zozbot234 »

lor_louis wrote: post #160
zozbot234 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use some thick metal plate as a shield and let it reflect the sound back towards the source, most likely. Or something foamy, like mattresses or the like, to just attenuate it. But I don't think any of that would protect you if you're facing 160 dB (though it would indeed be useful if you're farther from the source); the appropriate tactic then is indeed to disperse uniformly over a larger area and make it infeasible…

That's the exact same circumstances that lead to the development of guerilla warfare. I don't know how you'd go around creating a "highly visible gimmick" that has any lasting impact though.

The point is to simply demonstrate mass support by any means available. You can do it by gathering as a large crowd, but when that becomes a vulnerability your tactics must evolve somehow.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#165

Post by gessha »

neilv wrote: post #16

I wonder how the engineers and scientists who contributed to that less-lethal weapon feel about it.

Reminds me of a meme about how as an aerospace graduate, after a year and a thousand rejections, you just need to “live, laugh, Lockheed Martin”

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#166

Post by jncfhnb »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #153
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Part of the rationale for a total ban is to avoid escalating to more dangerous chemical agents Chemical weapons are tactically useless for modern militaries [1]. You’re pretty much always better off pounding with high explosives. And there isn’t a known path to escalation potential. If there were, everyone would be developing it. [1] https://acoup.blog/2020/03/20/collections-why-dont-we-use-ch...

Chemical weapons are tactically useless to the American combat doctrine, as described in that article. As we have seen, the Russian doctrine (and Ukraine's doctrine) relies on much more brute force to push a meter at a time and much more indiscriminate damage. It's hard to imagine chemical weapons being useless. He makes the mistake of looking at how the US military fights and thinking that is the only way to fight a…

Russian tactics have been largely ineffective and characterized by horrendous losses despite immense advantages in manpower and material

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#167

Post by [deleted] »

ty6853 wrote: post #158
killjoywashere wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) (a follow-on to the 1925 "Geneva Convention") allows for the use of riot control agents (like tear gas) for law enforcement purposes. https://www.opcw.org/our-work/what-chemical-weapon

Suppressing protests in US isn't usually law enforcement, its purpose is to violate the law and suppress speech.

[deleted]

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#168

Post by pclmulqdq »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #141
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were at a protest that was starting to get a bit rowdy and somebody used one of these on you, what would you do? I'd either come back prepared for actual violence, or switch from protest to sabotage. It just screams "escalation" to me.

> If you were at a protest that was starting to get a bit rowdy and somebody used one of these on you, what would you do? Leave. The moment it turns into a riot you’re doing damage to your cause. (If you’re in a protest and see hooligans, restrain them.)

You might enjoy reading Rules for Radicals if you haven't already. If your riot can provoke a worse response from the authority, it can help your cause. The reaction is the action.

It may be that this protest in Serbia got a bit rowdy and riotous (see "diversity of tactics") and now the headline is about the government's use of a disproportionate weapon against protestors, not about a riot.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#169

Post by perching_aix »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #113
neilv wrote: post #16

I wonder how the engineers and scientists who contributed to that less-lethal weapon feel about it.

[flagged]

@2OEH8eoCRo0

> I've worked on lethal weapons. I feel great!

Assuming that "I feel great" was with respect to having worked on lethal weapons, can you elaborate a bit? Do you consider your work to be supporting good cause(s) and feel it was well motivated for you to work on them, or do you just have no moral grievances working on lethal weapons (for whatever psychological reason)?

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#170

Post by gruez »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #56
camilo2025 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are aware that these LRAD systems have been used against US citizens, aren't you?

Police also regularly use tear gas against US citizens. These are weapons that would violate the Geneva convention, but we're okay with them to disperse a crowd.

[flagged]
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