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Breaking Up with On-Call

reflector.dev

161–170 of 202 posts

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#161
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why people used to be paid time-and-a-half or even double-time for being on call. Ask your union to demand that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-and-a-half

For nurses on-call is a tiny amount - $3/hr and then you get 1.5x if you actually get called in

In most of the country, California unions have largely negotiated for .5x pay while on call making it quite popular.

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you will find some extreme examples that could go that far, unions don't generally do that. Organisations that fight unions however do like to bring up that example, so... you've been had with anti union propaganda.

So my coworker who was a UAW member who told me stories about sleeping on the roof, and being reprimanded for moving a desk to retrieve a pen...was trying to dupe me?

> While you will find some extreme examples that could go that far,

I don't know how much more clear I could make it to you.

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#163
IANAL, but my understanding is that in Europe on-call can fall under working time, depending on the exact nature of the requirements. In fact, I'm very interested whether anyone has firsthand experience arguing developer on-call falls under such category. E.g. being 8 minutes away from a work machine and network access is not too dissimilar to a firefighter being 8 minutes away from the fire station.

https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/en/european-industrial-relat...

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#164
It seems that companies often end up with On-Call after they've reached some critical size but decide to do it in the cheapest possible way: let's just make our engineers do it!

One big problem is that they tend not to make any attempt to ensure that the on-call rotations are equitable across teams. You might need to be on call one week out of 4 or one week out of 20. At review time, this matters. Since you're typically not getting paid for the on call work or having it factor into your performance review, you're actually incentivized to snooze alerts and kick the can down the road until after your rotation or to join another team with lower rates of on call incidents.

Ironically, if you're spending 25% or your time on call and actually being diligent about the role, you're more likely to be adept with the typically hodgepodge collection of tools that you need to use to diagnose and address problems and will be better able to handle incidents than if you only ever use those tools once every 5 months.

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#165
post #62

For me the worst thing about being on-call is not the actual work outside business hours (it’s usually not much), but the potential work: if something happens I need to jump into my laptop within X minutes (changes from company to company, but it’s usually within 10 minutes). This means: I cannot go for a run, I cannot go to the movies, I cannot go for a dinner with family, I cannot even go shopping (shopping mall is…

All companies I have worked for wanted you to answer within minutes, but you had half an hour to actually connect and try fixing the issue, so you could totally go out and if you were in a larger than a 30min drive/ride/walk you would just keep a laptop in a vehicle or backpack.

I used to do 3hours rides with my bicycle and go to dinner or social events with a gpd pocket 2 in a small bag.

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's more or less what my team does. It works well. At least much better than saying you can't for for a swim at all.

I guess to me that seems worse because that’d effectively double the number of off-hours accountability per teammate. Not only do you need to be first on call for your primary hours, therefore severely restricting the quality of your “free time” but now you ALSO have to be secondary on call for that irresponsible coworker that goes afk without properly communicating for 2 hours, dipping twice into your actual free ti…

[deleted]

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People that have been interned in this or one of the other camps, or their descendants. It’s one generation ago, people born and raised in camps are still alive. George Takeo for example was born in one of the segregation camps. It’s a low stakes change. Nobody assumes harmful intentions from the author - I would not have recognized the picture either. But now that it’s been pointed out that it’s from a site where pe…

>Nobody assumes harmful intentions from the author Then what's the issue or purpose? Other than satisfying or inflating some own moral selfimage? That kind of social dynamic appears to be what this kind of things is about most of the time as opposed to preventing mental harm or stopping such issues from (re)occurring. >Knowing this, and insisting on keeping the images is now willfully associating with harmful behavio…

So you're essentially saying: "I don't believe people should try to be nice to each other even in places where it essentially comes for free." I get it, it's impossible to do the right thing all of the time. It's a chore. But very often, it comes for essentially free. Help carry the baby prom down the stairs if the elevator is broken. Tell people their shoelace is open. Change a picture that symbolizes hurt to people in places where the point is not talking about these places. Call people by their chosen name. It comes for almost free. It makes other peoples life better. What's the argument against it?

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's more or less what my team does. It works well. At least much better than saying you can't for for a swim at all.

I guess to me that seems worse because that’d effectively double the number of off-hours accountability per teammate. Not only do you need to be first on call for your primary hours, therefore severely restricting the quality of your “free time” but now you ALSO have to be secondary on call for that irresponsible coworker that goes afk without properly communicating for 2 hours, dipping twice into your actual free ti…

Out of 168 hours in a week, there are maybe up to 8 where I want to do something that interferes with being oncall. There's no downside real downside to being oncall for the other 160 hours. But I would get a lot of disutility from losing my freedom during those 8.

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#169
I am on-call for a week every ~8 weeks. I get 500 € and two additional days of vacation for it. If I do get a call, the additional hours go to my time account.

Fair deal, I'd say. Only problem is that most of the applications are from vendors, so getting problems fixed is an ordeal.

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#170

I was at the tender age of 21, and a mere contractor at my first job. I recall being paid hourly, but never filling a time card. I had just been promoted to a systems admin role, after demonstrating prowess with coding and system configuration, and also the actual qualified admin had quit. One of my projects involved a rewrite of server code for efficiency as our /etc/passwd balooned to thousands of users, and too ma…

> So my mother said that our household policy would henceforth be: "if something explodes out there, nobody answers the phone!" So if you had family that needed your immediate help, they would not receive it? That's indeed a perverse incentive.

I'm unsure how this got flipped turned upside-down, but this was Mom asserting boundaries to Dad's work-life balance.

The central controversy of on-call duty is that it leaves the household and family short-staffed, contributing to burnout and "workaholism". We were accustomed to Dad being at work M-F, 9-5, and being available and supporting us at all other times.

While a boiler explosion is certainly exceptional circumstances, it can be the "camel's nose in the tent" and eventually, Dad is potentially driving up there every Saturday night that a lab worker spilled 1 gram of mercury. Then he's not eating dinner with us, resting, mowing the lawn, helping Mom to shop or do errands.

I'm trying to recall any times Dad responded to a family emergency by leaving work, but it was nearly never necessary, since preparedness and response plans defined his career.

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