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Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

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Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#161

Post by Baljhin »

noneeeed wrote: post #56
lurk2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both organizations have had reputations for being honeypots as early as 2016. There have been a number of instances of federal agents becoming embedded in the organizational structures of groups like this (see e.g. the Malheur Wildlife Standoff and the plot to assassinate Gretchen Whitmer). Groups of this scale tend to fall into one of three categories: 1) They are honeypots set up by policing and / or intelligence a…

I've been struck by how often it is really quite senior people within criminal/terrorist organisations are the ones that get turned by the various agencies. In the UK, there was an informant for MI5 in the IRA for years codenamed Steaknife. It turned out he was the head of IRA internal security, it was his job to hunt moles. He was the perfect agent. I seem to remember a story of a mafia don who turned out to be an i…

> I seem to remember a story of a mafia don who turned out to be an informant, which seems wild to me.

There's also "Jimmy the Weasel" Fratianno who turned FBI informant. In Ovid Demaris' book "The Last Mafioso: The Treacherous World of Jimmy Fratianno", he quotes Jimmy even laughs about being one, taking money from FBI and still running his rackets for a time.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#162

Post by lurk2 »

ty6853 wrote: post #157
BryantD wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like it's worth noting that this is not a universal dynamic. Tim McVeigh didn't need a fed to turn into the kind of person who kills 168 people. I'm sure we're all aware of the way this occasional dynamic gets turned into an excuse for any radicial behavior: "must have been a false flag, must have been talked into it." Which, to be clear, you did not say -- but we see it often.

I think he did need a fed. Watching children burned alive at Waco (he was there), after which the seiging feds proudly posed for photos on their charred ruble, really got the ball rolling on his motivation. I'm not saying the feds told him to do it, but Ruby Ridge, Waco, and feds like Lon Horiuchi getting off scott free after sniping an innocent woman holding a child really radicalized him.

> (he was there)

That's fascinating. I read about McVeigh years ago and knew he was motivated by Waco but I had no idea he actually witnessed it. Here is a short two minute video I found on the topic: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/oklahom...

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#163

Post by scarecrowbob »

mikeyouse wrote: post #141
dingnuts wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hence my confusion at the sudden "left" outcry over the attacks on the FBI and CIA, two organizations they have been bemoaning for my entire life, and with good reason! Those organizations are responsible for some of the absolute worst behavior associated with American history, the most shameful of shameful episodes throughout the Americas were started by the CIA and FBI. I think the outcry is actually mostly media-o…

Nobody on the left disputes the fucked up history of the FBI or CIA -- but they're not being dismantled, they're being explicitly weaponized against the Left again. If Trump had said, "The FBI has a racist an unamerican history, we need to shut it down", he might find some common ground, but instead he's pointing at the occasional investigation of someone in his party or social class as evidence of their "wokeness" a…

This is pretty close to my position.

If they are trying to close in on the intelligence and police state because it's not vicious enough against folks they don't like (which includes me and a lot of folks I care about) then a "new and improved" CIA / FBI isn't a "good" thing.

I generally hate the US gov for it's history of doing objectively evil things (I pass by a former "residential school" every time I drive into town), but replacing it with something even more vicious and authoritarian doesn't improve the situation.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#164

Post by jonathanlb »

Hasz wrote: post #134
squigz wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is it's difficult to have one without the other. If the cost of reducing gun violence is that hobbyists can't collect guns... that's a cost I think society can stomach. I'm not blaming hobbyists for gun violence or anything, obviously, but these ideas are not unconnected.

We know where gun violence comes from, and it's not dudes collecting vintage rifle prototypes from Yugoslavia. about 2/3 of gun deaths in 2022 are suicides. Of homicides, it's mostly young black men. Suicide rates are highest for old white men. https://publichealth.jhu.edu/sites/default/files/2024-09/202... We are failing specific people at specific stages of their lives by not offering them opportunity and hope for…

I agree with everything you said, except your last sentence.

As a parent, and as a gun owner, I'm fine with there being gun control that leads to no more school shootings. And no, you can't depend on a "good guy with a gun" (Uvalde, Parkland). I don't know what the solution is, to be honest, but other countries don't have the school shooting problem the US has.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#165

Post by squigz »

Hasz wrote: post #134
squigz wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is it's difficult to have one without the other. If the cost of reducing gun violence is that hobbyists can't collect guns... that's a cost I think society can stomach. I'm not blaming hobbyists for gun violence or anything, obviously, but these ideas are not unconnected.

We know where gun violence comes from, and it's not dudes collecting vintage rifle prototypes from Yugoslavia. about 2/3 of gun deaths in 2022 are suicides. Of homicides, it's mostly young black men. Suicide rates are highest for old white men. https://publichealth.jhu.edu/sites/default/files/2024-09/202... We are failing specific people at specific stages of their lives by not offering them opportunity and hope for…

> We know where gun violence comes from, and it's not dudes collecting vintage rifle prototypes from Yugoslavia.

I literally said "I'm not blaming gun hobbyists for violence." Thank you for starting off with a terribly bad faith reading of my comment.

> If you're a US citizen, gun control is an infringement on your civil rights

And this is what I mean by them being connected. Gun hobbyists in the US will argue for it based on their "rights", which just makes it harder to make any changes that might actually reduce gun violence.

> Even if you could round up all the guns, the ... violence will remain without some structural changes.

It's difficult for me to believe that if you remove one of the easiest ways to kill people, violence would just remain the same. Is there any evidence to support this theory? I've never seen any, but I have seen data suggesting that countries with stricter gun control laws tend to have less murders.

> gun control is an infringement on your civil rights

Because gun ownership is part of your constitution, you can easily make it seem as though those questioning it are attacking the very basis of your country. Seems like a systemic issue to me...

> the hopelessness ... will remain without some structural changes.

I don't disagree that hopelessness is the core issue here, but I think it's blatantly silly to think that if you give a hopeless population easy access to tools whose entire function is to kill, and tell them that owning that weapon (and using it when necessary...) is a fundamental part of their identity... that it won't result in more and more intense violence.

Like with many widespread societal issues, you can't just ignore the symptoms and try to cure the actual problem - and certainly nor can you do the opposite, as you say - you need to fix both.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#166

Post by squigz »

875368945 wrote: post #138
squigz wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is it's difficult to have one without the other. If the cost of reducing gun violence is that hobbyists can't collect guns... that's a cost I think society can stomach. I'm not blaming hobbyists for gun violence or anything, obviously, but these ideas are not unconnected.

I think the issue is less stopping gun collectors. The issue is preventing self-defense. If there were a magic weapon which can only be used to defend yourself, and not for offensive purposes, then sure! Ban guns! But in today’s world, a firearm is the most effective self-defense tool (tho owning a gun isn’t going to magically make you safer). I grew up supporting gun control, but I think that’s because of my backgro…

> If there were a magic weapon

Ah yes, paint the issue as only solvable by a "magic" item... Of course, trying to make the other side seem fundamentally silly is a primary tactic of the pro-gun crowd

> only be used to defend yourself, and not for offensive purposes, then sure!

Of course not, but the question is more the damage one can do when used for offensive purposes.

Anyway, here's your magic solutions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Less_lethal_weapon

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#167

Post by Ancapistani »

showerst wrote: post #104
Ancapistani wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What the louder militia members and gun nuts are up to is no secret. For that matter, I'd include myself in the latter group. I'm reasonably vocal here - usually in an attempt to simply share my perspective, as it's not of the prevailing position in this community. Sure, "the gun nuts" have a different agenda than the larger community. We're gun nuts because that's important to us. I can't think of anything that I'…

While there's certainly more overlap than a random group of people, in discussions like these I think even the most anti-gun people recognize that the broader "I like guns because guns are fun" community isn't really the focus in terms of domestic terrorism or crazy race war stuff. Particularly on youtube there's this huge Forgotten Weapons, Garand Thumb, DemolitionRanch etc style sphere that stays relatively apoliti…

> the broader "I like guns because guns are fun" community

That's the community I'm speaking of - in fact, we'd call those people "Fudds", after Elmer Fudd.

It's definitely a political position. It's just one that's prone to violence. If anything, it's the opposite; the gun community does an excellent job of policing itself. I've personally seen people displaying violent tendencies get reported and ultimately charged and convicted within that particular community.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#168

Post by Ancapistani »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #136
squigz wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is it's difficult to have one without the other. If the cost of reducing gun violence is that hobbyists can't collect guns... that's a cost I think society can stomach. I'm not blaming hobbyists for gun violence or anything, obviously, but these ideas are not unconnected.

>that's a cost I think society can stomach. Society believes it can stomach that cost because it is largely irrational, incapable of long-term or worst-case thinking, and utterly oblivious to ground-state reality.

Correct.

I always feel the need to preface this statement when I make it here, so here we go: this is in no way meant as a threat or even a statement of my own political beliefs. It is my belief based on being a member of these communities for decades.

Any attempt to ban firearms in the United States would result in more death and injury than the problems it is intended to solve. The American people will not give up their arms without bloodshed.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#169

Post by Ancapistani »

dingnuts wrote: post #110
Ancapistani wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What the louder militia members and gun nuts are up to is no secret. For that matter, I'd include myself in the latter group. I'm reasonably vocal here - usually in an attempt to simply share my perspective, as it's not of the prevailing position in this community. Sure, "the gun nuts" have a different agenda than the larger community. We're gun nuts because that's important to us. I can't think of anything that I'…

Gen X is in their mid-fifties. Boomers are in their 70s now. But yes, it is Boomer content, and the pick of the 1911 is a weirdly hilarious tell. That's the sidearm from WWII so it's the one all the Boomers' dad's wore into Europe & the Pacific. Of course Jesus would choose the 1911 lmao

Hey now, I love my 1911s!

I don't carry them much, for all the reasons you might imagine: they're big, heavy, and relatively low capacity. They feel great, though.

Realistically I almost always carry a Glock 43. If I were buying a carry pistol today, I'd consider a Sig P365 or a Canik. They're the right balance of capability and convenience.

... but yeah, that particular conclusion was foregone. If nothing else, it feeds the long-running meme of .45 ACP being "God's caliber".

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#170

Post by Ancapistani »

red-iron-pine wrote: post #112
Ancapistani wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What the louder militia members and gun nuts are up to is no secret. For that matter, I'd include myself in the latter group. I'm reasonably vocal here - usually in an attempt to simply share my perspective, as it's not of the prevailing position in this community. Sure, "the gun nuts" have a different agenda than the larger community. We're gun nuts because that's important to us. I can't think of anything that I'…

> Lots of things that could be easily taken out of context, sure, and a fair number of things that are just plain inappropriate - but you could say the same for any community. What kind of ridiculous copium is this? i'm sure the quilting community says all sorts of terrible things that could be taken out of context. the difference is they don't have a long history of gun violence. ain't no one showed up and killed 20…

> What kind of ridiculous copium is this?

> i'm sure the quilting community says all sorts of terrible things that could be taken out of context.

The things said there are different in perspective from some of the things said here, just from another direction.

To be more specific, most of the time when I see someone say something like "hang 'em from the lampposts", it's in reference to LEO attempting confiscation or something. It should not be reasonably construed as a legitimate threat and is not intended as such. It's hyperbole.

People who are actually a risk are obvious based on their overall pattern of behavior.

> the difference is they don't have a long history of gun violence. ain't no one showed up and killed 20 elementary kids with knitting needles. no one smuggled a crochet gear to a 17 year old and saw protesters crochet'd to death.

Neither does the gun community.

We do have dangerous items as the center of the whole idea, though, which means the hyperbole I mentioned above is looked at much more closely than if a textile artist made the same comment. That has resulted in significant internal policing.

> and what is your 2nd amendment right doing now? the government, and arguably global economy, is under threat and you're doing what exactly with these guns?

The vast majority of us don't see things that way at all - this is exactly what "we" (i.e., the gun community) voted for.

That said, I've been an advocate for LGBT, minorities, and others at risk acquiring arms and training for decades. I'll continue to do that.

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