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U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

wsj.com

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Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#161

Post by StefanBatory »

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #144
xenospn wrote: post #70

[flagged]

I have trouble following the logic here. Putin has not been able to conquer the whole of Ukraine after 3 years, but somehow, suddenly, he will be able to conquer all of the Baltic states without breaking a sweat? So which is it? Is the Russian army fighting with shovels or are they a ferocious horde that is unstoppable? Those two things cannot be true at the same time. I am getting tired of people parroting this narr…

Russians could invade and while it is most likely that after a long war they'd be pushed back, they'd still leave ruins.

Also, we don't have unified army. So as painful as it is, it is most likely Baltic states would have to fend of with their military (and due to population, well, they can't - even if they are bringing conscription back), maybe Poland and Finland. Maybe. And then you'd have to coordinate what to do next between all national militaries.

And what would stop a Frenchman or Portuguese to say Why die for Vilnius?

:\

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#162

Post by mrtesthah »

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #144
xenospn wrote: post #70

[flagged]

I have trouble following the logic here. Putin has not been able to conquer the whole of Ukraine after 3 years, but somehow, suddenly, he will be able to conquer all of the Baltic states without breaking a sweat? So which is it? Is the Russian army fighting with shovels or are they a ferocious horde that is unstoppable? Those two things cannot be true at the same time. I am getting tired of people parroting this narr…

>Putin has not been able to conquer the whole of Ukraine after 3 years...

And with whose weapons and support do you think they managed to do that? Not to mention the US had been helping to train the Ukrainian army since 2014.

Anyone who has paid attention to the Ukraine war this far already understands what past, present, and future assurances of military support mean for deterrence.

Your comment suggests a level of ignorance or naivety either on the part of the author or the reader.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#163

Post by StefanBatory »

csomar wrote: post #84
ellis0n wrote: post #69

Hello from Ukraine and I need help. The war in Ukraine has made it impossible to run my startup. Due to unlimited attacks it has become impossible to focus on anything other than the war. Of course, the war certainly needs to be stopped, but no one really knows how to do it correctly and I'm not sure anything good will come of it. After 3 years of the war, my memory has started to deteriorate and I’ve encountered iss…

You are focusing on the wrong things. You need to leave immediately (and take your family if you can). If you can't leave the country try going nearby the Polish border.

It's... not that easy. And if he fails at it, he risks a lot - most likely getting thrown into army as a deserter and most likely sent to the equivalent of penal units.

(EDIT: Unless they're a woman/nb, in which case yeah - please try to do so because it will be way easier for you)

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#164

Post by rurban »

stuffoverflow wrote: post #142
jesterson wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you are trying to veer the convo in another direction, but to address it - it's been 3 years, hundreds of thousands died, and absolutely nothing achieved. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Ukraine has retained its independence. That's a big achievement on its own.

Not under these circumstances, inviting Russia to try again capturing Kyev.

Also NATO is dead now. So why should they stop at the Ukranian border.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#165

Post by schroeding »

jesterson wrote: post #134
AlecSchueler wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling it "the endless war" makes this a loaded question. You might get a more productive response without that.

Not sure why you are trying to veer the convo in another direction, but to address it - it's been 3 years, hundreds of thousands died, and absolutely nothing achieved. Please correct me if I am wrong.

If France had hold out until 1943, with the Wehrmacht only making a few hundred yards progress per day, it would have been a massive success, don't you agree? Without western help, Ukraine would have had no chance in hell to survive that long.

It's the same logic the US applied to lend-lease, didn't they? There was a good chance of the USSR collapsing until 1943, and you still helped them. Delaying an invading attacker, especially one who may plan, according to their own internal propaganda, to attack other nations later, is already more than "nothing".

The price for peace is living under occupation. Depending on the occupier, this can be a fate worse than death, and significant numbers of Ukrainians appear to think the latter.

And for a very selfish argument: It buys us, the Europeans, more time (with Ukrainian blood) to prepare for war, when Russia attacks the Baltics in a few years. Which we desperately need, as the US will likely break their promise and not help us under the current administration (and who knows who the US elects next).

The 3 years allowed e.g. the Baltics to build extensive defensive fortifications.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#166

Post by attentive »

Wololooo wrote: post #106
0rzech wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right. And let's not forget that Europe and USA have been helping directly for a few years now anyway. It's really disappointing how much misinformation gets reiterated on the Internet with regards to this memorandum, given how short the document is and how easy it is to verify its contents oneself. PS. NATO's Article 5 is also worth a read. It does not guarantee what is commonly claimed.

Let's not go there. In the history of the Alliance there is only a single country that invoked article 5, and it was the US with 9/11 that lead to the United Kingdom, Canada, Germany, Australia, Italy, New Zealand to send resources and troops to help with Afghanistan. And managed to get people involved in Iraq namely United Kingdom, Australia, Poland. And this situation was way worse and way less called for than the…

relevant, Ukraine also joined the "Coalition of the Willing," a U.S.-led multinational force in Iraq

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#167

Post by thenthenthen »

nicbou wrote: post #133
jesterson wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

My understanding is that you are outsourcing the work of grinding Russia’s military down. You get to deplete a geopolitical foe at a bargain, without spilling American blood. There is also the moral argument that you are supporting Ukraine in a war of aggression started by Russia. My fear is that conceding anything to Russia just gives it an opportunity to regroup, rearm and finish the job. Appeasement has not worked…

I recently had a discussion with someone more senior than me and they were convinced that the whole deal was about resources in the first place. If anyone has some references and thoughts about this, please share.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#168

Post by rdm_blackhole »

mrtesthah wrote: post #162
rdm_blackhole wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have trouble following the logic here. Putin has not been able to conquer the whole of Ukraine after 3 years, but somehow, suddenly, he will be able to conquer all of the Baltic states without breaking a sweat? So which is it? Is the Russian army fighting with shovels or are they a ferocious horde that is unstoppable? Those two things cannot be true at the same time. I am getting tired of people parroting this narr…

> Putin has not been able to conquer the whole of Ukraine after 3 years... And with whose weapons and support do you think they managed to do that? Not to mention the US had been helping to train the Ukrainian army since 2014. Anyone who has paid attention to the Ukraine war this far already understands what past, present, and future assurances of military support mean for deterrence. Your comment suggests a level of…

Your comment is exactly the kind of high-ended attitude that is turning off people from having healthy debates with other people who might disagree with them.

I am asking a legitimate question.

Your contention is that even though the war is at best a stalemate and has revealed that Russia is at best a paper tiger, we should now believe that somehow it has the strength to invade all the Baltic states?

I am sorry to say but this is a fantasy that is not supported by the facts of the situation that we have seen in the last 3 years.

Now, you are free to disagree and that is fine but that should not stop us to ask questions about these matters.

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