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Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

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Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#161

Post by throwawayffffas »

throwway120385 wrote: post #74
potato3732842 wrote: post #25

As a pedestrian I will take a busy light controlled intersection with a pedestrian scramble type walk signal over a busy 4-way stop where every single time. With the 4-way stop there is never a time in the cycle when all traffic is stopped. The drivers who are present are continuously paying attention to what other drivers are doing which robs them of situational awareness to note pedestrians. You can try and time it…

> With the walk signal there is a brief moment in time when the drivers are doing nothing but waiting for you and are all stopped so you as a pedestrian can account for them in preparation just before you get your signal and make your move. Having almost been hit a few times by drivers making a right turn on red, I can tell you the drivers never wait even if you have the right of way. You'll be lucky if they even loo…

> Having almost been hit a few times by drivers making a right turn on red, I can tell you the drivers never wait even if you have the right of way. You'll be lucky if they even look for you.

Right on red should not really be allowed. It's a real hazard.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#162

Post by GrantMoyer »

throwawayffffas wrote: post #63

So he is saying that people are running the red lights but were not running the stop signs. I would bet good money that the people willing to run the red lights would be more likely to run the stop signs than not, especially if they know there are stop signs on the other road.

People usually slow down to run stop signs, but speed up to run red lights.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#163

Post by RandomBacon »

CalRobert wrote: post #72
ajmurmann wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of adoption of best practices from other countries is generally baffling to me. When I first visited China grim Europe and saw traffic lights with countdowns (like in the US) I thought we did immediately adopt this in Europe. Cultural inertia and lack of looking outwards is really frustrating.

A countdown on a traffic signal seems like a fun way to encourage drag racing. Though it's nice on pedestrian signals.

Is it a countdown until it turns green, or a countdown until it turns red? I think it's unlikely the latter would encourage drag racing.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#164

Post by itishappy »

PittleyDunkin wrote: post #117
itishappy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With the 4-way stop there is never a time when all traffic is stopped and the drivers are always paying attention to what other drivers are doing. With the walk signal there is a brief moment in time when the drivers are doing nothing but waiting for you and are all stopped so you as a pedestrian can account for them in preparation just before you get your signal and make your move. That's... not true? With light t…

> With light traffic a 4 way stop should have no cars at all at it most of the time Unless there's protected right turns, of course.

Agreed, but I would not call an intersection with a dedicated turning lane a 4 way stop, or at least not a low traffic one.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#165

Post by prmoustache »

crackercrews wrote: post #133
DHPersonal wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The first car doesn't even cross their side of the pedestrian crossing before the red light blinks on, so they have had ample time to prepare to stop and are running a red light. The second car is more debatable but also had enough time to stop, as the light turns red while they are still in the middle of the intersection.

The second car definitely entered on yellow. It doesn't matter if they could have stopped. They have the right to enter on yellow. The first car passed the first line when the light was yellow, but not the second line. The area in between is the crosswalk. I can't tell if "enter the intersection" means "enter any part of the area past the line where you're supposed to stop" or "enter the part past the crosswalk, wher…

The fact people can't figure what the rules are is a problem in itself vs a stop sign where everybody knows you should stop.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#166

Post by SoftTalker »

throwway120385 wrote: post #74
potato3732842 wrote: post #25

As a pedestrian I will take a busy light controlled intersection with a pedestrian scramble type walk signal over a busy 4-way stop where every single time. With the 4-way stop there is never a time in the cycle when all traffic is stopped. The drivers who are present are continuously paying attention to what other drivers are doing which robs them of situational awareness to note pedestrians. You can try and time it…

> With the walk signal there is a brief moment in time when the drivers are doing nothing but waiting for you and are all stopped so you as a pedestrian can account for them in preparation just before you get your signal and make your move. Having almost been hit a few times by drivers making a right turn on red, I can tell you the drivers never wait even if you have the right of way. You'll be lucky if they even loo…

Here's how I handle right on red: When I have the walk signal, I look to my left for cars that might be turning right. If there are any, I look at whether the driver sees me. Try to make eye contact. If they are moving and apparently don't see me or are going to turn anyway, I wait. I may have the right of way, but I'm not going to win that battle.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#167

Post by RC_ITR »

afhsrtjwrtj wrote: post #139
throwway120385 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With the walk signal there is a brief moment in time when the drivers are doing nothing but waiting for you and are all stopped so you as a pedestrian can account for them in preparation just before you get your signal and make your move. Having almost been hit a few times by drivers making a right turn on red, I can tell you the drivers never wait even if you have the right of way. You'll be lucky if they even loo…

Why is right-on-red always cited as the biggest problem with turns? My anecdotal experience is that drivers turning on green are way more likely to hit me when I have a walk signal on the cross-street than drivers who turn right on red.

On a green arrow turn, drivers are looking to where they are going. Legally crossing pedestrians are in that cross walk where the driver is looking.

With right on red, the driver is also looking to where they are going, but legally crossing pedestrians are not there, they are directly in front of the car.

The riskiest thing for a pedestrian is approaching a right on red car from the left, because the driver is simply not looking at you.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#168

Post by toast0 »

crackercrews wrote: post #133
DHPersonal wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The first car doesn't even cross their side of the pedestrian crossing before the red light blinks on, so they have had ample time to prepare to stop and are running a red light. The second car is more debatable but also had enough time to stop, as the light turns red while they are still in the middle of the intersection.

The second car definitely entered on yellow. It doesn't matter if they could have stopped. They have the right to enter on yellow. The first car passed the first line when the light was yellow, but not the second line. The area in between is the crosswalk. I can't tell if "enter the intersection" means "enter any part of the area past the line where you're supposed to stop" or "enter the part past the crosswalk, wher…

It's well spelled out in vehicle code 21453 (a)

> A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b). [subdivision b allows for turns on red]

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio....

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#169

Post by whimsicalism »

runako wrote: post #62
mungoman2 wrote: post #8

This is an annoying change, but the cars in the video weren't actually running any red lights. Doesn't help the case to exaggerate.

https://imgur.com/a/ASSeakh

think it’s just on the margin - they’re in the intersection in this shot and it’s not illegal (at least where i’m from) to be in the intersection when the light turns red

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#170

Post by runako »

avgDev wrote: post #140
runako wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you are correct. That's why I specifically did not address the car's entry into the intersection. Given the red light, is the car in a legal position in the freeze frame?

Yes. I do not understand why this is so misunderstood in the comments. This picture is LEGAL in most US states as long as the car entered the intersection ON A GREEN OR YELLOW light.

At least one California law firm disagrees, hence my question:

https://www.wccbc.com/red-and-yellow-light-accidents/#:~:tex....

Some quick Googling shows that "it depends on where" appears to be the right answer. New Jersey appears to be a populated jurisdiction where this might not be legal.

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