Live data from Hacker News

The Latest On Intelligence

danielwillingham.com

161–170 of 172 posts

Re: The Latest On Intelligence

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc is one of the classic logical fallacies[1]. You persist in the assumption that poverty causes lower IQ, rather than the possibility that both poverty and lower IQ are correlated because they share a common cause. [1] See http://www.skepdic.com/posthoc.html

The way you do a controlled experiment in science is that you have a number of subjects, you subject only some of them to some new condition, and then you look for statistically significant differences between the group subject to the condition and the one that wasn't. That was what happened in the study I mentioned. Now, you can say that this wasn't absolute proof and you'd be right, because science doesn't provide…

you can say that this wasn't absolute proof and you'd be right, ... But if you're going to throw out this evidence you're going to have to throw out the rest of modern medicine too.

No, what needs to be thrown out is armchair scientists who don't properly understand the scientific method. Just because you've shown a statistically-significant correlation between two phenomenon, there really is very little reason to expect that shoring up one of those phenomenon will actually have an effect on the other.

Let's look at the question at hand, the correlation between (low) IQ and childhood poverty. Observing that the poor are more likely to be undernourished and at the same time, children in poverty show fewer signs of inherited high intelligence, there is very little (one might even say zero) reason to believe that giving poor kids food will improve their intelligence.

People seem to nod their heads and say "yeah, whatever" when challenged on the difference between causation and correlation, but in fact there's a world of difference.

Here's an alternative speculation about the real causation of the observation. Being a single-parent household causes poverty because a smaller income must be spread across the same fixed expenses (rent, etc.) and nearly the same variable expenses (say, 3/4 the food, medical care, etc.), and thus the money "runs out" sooner. Being a single-parent household also causes lower IQ, because there is less parental involvement available to the child (helping with homework and the like), because a single parent must be consuming at least as much time working, more (per family member) doing necessary household chores, and thus less remains for the kid.

Through this chain of causation, throwing food at the problem may fix the malnutrition, but that's not the identified cause of the lower IQ, so if our goal is to improve IQs, then the investment was entirely wasted. We've still got as many single-parent households who can't invest as much time interacting with the child, and since the actual cause is still out there, there will be just as many lower-IQ kids. Your un-scientific jump to conclusions about the causation has wasted what you've invested to fix it, and worse, because you believed you were fixing it, you've actually blocked more legitimate efforts to fix the real cause.

Really: seeing a correlation is no reason to believe that there's causation in effect. This is true in philosophy, but just as true in science!

Re: The Latest On Intelligence

#162
post #156
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem with upvoting is that I have read the underlying paper, and I'm not impressed at all. This paper takes a hugely nurturist approach, and at parts verges on dishonesty. I consider myself - if not an expert, at least very well informed - on the topic of dual n-back and I was flabbergasted when I read pg11 of the PDF. There is not a single mention of the many failures to replicate, methodological critiques, or…

It sounds like you are hijacking the paper to talk about a pet theory. Did you find a cite on p11 about DNB? They refer to cognitive exercise, but not using that particular method. Whether that method is effective or not is orthogonal to their point.

Huh? They spend almost an entire page talking about DNB and WM training! (And BTW my points about DNB apply just as well to WM training in general.)

> Whether that method is effective or not is orthogonal to their point.

You are wrong. It is very germane whether it works.

Re: The Latest On Intelligence

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first point would only elucidate a common misconception that IQ tests adequately measure intelligence. As to your second point, what studies are these? (I'd actually be interested)

This is a good intro: http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1997whygmatter...

I personally believe IQ is a fairly good predictor of intelligence the way people in (at least American) society think about it. This study attempts to prove that high IQ is good for most jobs. What it doesn’t prove is the high end of the spectrum where someone of 120 IQ compares with someone of 140IQ in extremely high level jobs. My experience is that creativity trumps IQ in most cases where people are considered generally intelligent. The people that really are viewed as most successful typically have a high or very high IQ, but are always very creative.

Re: The Latest On Intelligence

#164
post #162
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you are hijacking the paper to talk about a pet theory. Did you find a cite on p11 about DNB? They refer to cognitive exercise, but not using that particular method. Whether that method is effective or not is orthogonal to their point.

Huh? They spend almost an entire page talking about DNB and WM training! (And BTW my points about DNB apply just as well to WM training in general.) > Whether that method is effective or not is orthogonal to their point. You are wrong. It is very germane whether it works .

Okay, I found the reference on page 10. Somehow my keyword search didn't work and we didn't number pages the same way.

Re: The Latest On Intelligence

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not alone. I've always wondered, how come different dog breeds have different behavior and intelligence levels. Yet certain breeds are much smarter than others and capable of greater learning capacity. Any kind of comparison, even scientific, between human races would be seen as racist and thrown out immediately. It conjures up all sorts of negative emotions. Hitler, Nazis, Eugenics, Master Races, Holocausts.…

> Evolution wise, we're disposable. Women are not. The human race can easily be replenished with 99 women and 1 man. But not with 99 men and 1 women This is not how evolution works. It runs on which genes outreproduce which other genes within a species, and cares nothing for "the good of the species" or "the survival of the species". If men are more violent, it was because individually more violent males outreproduce…

That example doesn't really apply if tribes continually split and the more violent tribes continually kill off the less violent tribes.

Re: The Latest On Intelligence

#166

"A great deal of time has been wasted in the effort of measuring the heritability of traits in the false expectation that somehow the genetic nature of psychological phenomena would be revealed." There is a strong cultural bias among much of the research community to go out of their way to deny any genetic factors in intelligence. Perhaps this is well intentioned, but it is absurd. I have come across very few squirre…

You're not alone. I've always wondered, how come different dog breeds have different behavior and intelligence levels. Yet certain breeds are much smarter than others and capable of greater learning capacity. Any kind of comparison, even scientific, between human races would be seen as racist and thrown out immediately. It conjures up all sorts of negative emotions. Hitler, Nazis, Eugenics, Master Races, Holocausts.…

The horrific repercussions of loudly proclaiming the obvious are completely nullified by the near universal preference for comfortable illusions. Don't worry, be happy :)

Re: The Latest On Intelligence

#167

"A great deal of time has been wasted in the effort of measuring the heritability of traits in the false expectation that somehow the genetic nature of psychological phenomena would be revealed." There is a strong cultural bias among much of the research community to go out of their way to deny any genetic factors in intelligence. Perhaps this is well intentioned, but it is absurd. I have come across very few squirre…

The squirrel example is absolutely absurd - there are clear physiological, morphological differences between human beings and squirrels that influence whether or not squirrels even have the capacity to master fire, or whatever other silly comparison you choose. Furthermore, I think you will find that environmental factors plainly influence the behavior of animal populations (squirrels, chimpanzees, birds - any kingdo…

> There is no physiological model for human intelligence...

No? I've read several. For example:

"The pronounced convolution of the human cortex may be a morphological substrate that supports some of our species’ most distinctive cognitive abilities. Therefore, individual intelligence within humans might be modulated by the degree of folding in certain cortical regions. We applied advanced methods to analyze cortical convolution at high spatial resolution and correlated those measurements with intelligence quotients. Within a large sample of healthy adult subjects (n = 65), we detected the most prominent correlations in the left medial hemisphere. More specifically, intelligence scores were positively associated with the degree of folding in the temporo-occipital lobe, particularly in the outermost section of the posterior cingulate gyrus (retrosplenial areas). Thus, this region might be an important contributor toward individual intelligence, either via modulating pathways to (pre)frontal regions or by serving as a location for the convergence of information."

http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/18/9/2019.full

And:

When we examined the same regression model excluding ICV, some cortical measurements were associated with IQ frequently in frontal and temporal lobe. It might conclude that human intelligence is significantly correlated with the cortical complexity coming from brain size, rather than cortical shape itself. The combination of various cortical measurements explained 52.57% of IQ. The results showed that they were more useful for prediction of human intelligence than alone.

http://www.iaeng.org/publication/WCECS2011/WCECS2011_pp428-4...

I'm not defending these particular papers. I'm just baffled at the comment that there are "no" physiological models for intelligence.

The following paper appears to directly contradict your assertion that "there does not exist any inheritable, physiological difference that would influence intelligence":

"Variation in gray matter (GM) and white matter (WM) volume of the adult human brain is primarily genetically determined. Moreover, total brain volume is positively correlated with general intelligence, and both share a common genetic origin. However, although genetic effects on morphology of specific GM areas in the brain have been studied, the heritability of focal WM is unknown. Similarly, it is unresolved whether there is a common genetic origin of focal GM and WM structures with intelligence. We explored the genetic influence on focal GM and WM densities in magnetic resonance brain images of 54 monozygotic and 58 dizygotic twin pairs and 34 of their siblings. ... These findings point to a neural network that shares a common genetic origin with human intelligence."

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/26/40/10235.full

Re: The Latest On Intelligence

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not alone. I've always wondered, how come different dog breeds have different behavior and intelligence levels. Yet certain breeds are much smarter than others and capable of greater learning capacity. Any kind of comparison, even scientific, between human races would be seen as racist and thrown out immediately. It conjures up all sorts of negative emotions. Hitler, Nazis, Eugenics, Master Races, Holocausts.…

> Evolution wise, we're disposable. Women are not. The human race can easily be replenished with 99 women and 1 man. But not with 99 men and 1 women This is not how evolution works. It runs on which genes outreproduce which other genes within a species, and cares nothing for "the good of the species" or "the survival of the species". If men are more violent, it was because individually more violent males outreproduce…

That's exactly how evolution works. Because there is an element of human choice as to which genes go on. We are a part of evolution. We choose what goes on. And we have chosen through war and death that violent men go on, and peaceful men die off. We have chosen that men are disposable, we build our armies with men, we sacrifice the men, and keep the women at home because they are the creators of humanity and men the destroyers and conquerers. Primative but it's reality.

All throughout history, wars are fought almost exclusively by men. Men killing men is alright by nature, because back since tribal times, the testosterone induced violent winner got the women and reproduced. Thus passing on his genes. The violent genes outreproduced the peaceful ones. Look at nature all around us. The violent dominate the peaceful, the aggressive dominate the passive, the intelligent dominate the dumb. The animals at the top of any foodchain are more violent, aggressive, and/or intelligent than the others beneath it.

I have a feeling we're both talking about the same thing just from a different viewpoint.

Re: The Latest On Intelligence

#169
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that that isn't a great thing to do, but how does that help anyone overcome the limits on opportunity that poverty places on them?

Malnutrition can be one such limit of opportunity, if it harms development in childhood. It's also one of the easiest things to fix; giving children nutritional supplements and subsidized school lunches is pretty cheap and straightforward, compared to just about any other method of ameliorating poverty.

Ah, OK, I see what you're saying.

Re: The Latest On Intelligence

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The squirrel example is absolutely absurd - there are clear physiological, morphological differences between human beings and squirrels that influence whether or not squirrels even have the capacity to master fire, or whatever other silly comparison you choose. Furthermore, I think you will find that environmental factors plainly influence the behavior of animal populations (squirrels, chimpanzees, birds - any kingdo…

> There is no physiological model for human intelligence... No? I've read several. For example: "The pronounced convolution of the human cortex may be a morphological substrate that supports some of our species’ most distinctive cognitive abilities. Therefore, individual intelligence within humans might be modulated by the degree of folding in certain cortical regions. We applied advanced methods to analyze cortical…

I'll concede this point - there exists evidence that some physiological traits may correlate with intelligence. But there does not exist a model of why or how those traits influence intelligence.
Post reply on HN