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OpenAI is Visa – Buttering up the government to retain a monopoly

sherwood.news

161–170 of 171 posts

Re: OpenAI is Visa – Buttering up the government to retain a monopoly

#161
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IRS gets the vast majority of business taxes paid (no way to under-report taxable income) I guess we should dispel this one if it's really why people think financial mass surveillance is a good thing. Cash is not even close to the only way for someone inclined to do it to under-report taxable income. Business income is revenue minus expenses. Anything that lowers revenue or increases expenses reduces taxable income…

You haven't dispelled this at all. You literally can't reduce revenue on paper when your business revenue is credit card payments. The payments get reported directly to the IRS by the card processor. You can so much more easily fudge numbers if you take in primarily cash. In both cash and credit scenarios the business owner can increase on-paper expenses to lower tax burden, but there's only so much you can do with t…

> You literally can't reduce revenue on paper when your business revenue is credit card payments. The payments get reported directly to the IRS by the card processor.

The revenue isn't on the credit card.

Example: You go to the mechanic to have your brake master cylinder replaced. The part is $100 so they charge you $100 for the part and the credit card company says they have $100 in revenue, which gets deducted because they paid it to the parts company. But what you've actually given them is $100 and your old master cylinder, which can be rebuilt and put into another car and is worth $50. So they've reported $100 in revenue for the part, deducted the labor it took to rebuild the old part in addition to replacing yours (which also negates their profit on the labor), and now they have no profit on the books and a $50 profit off the books in the form of a serviceable part.

Example: Someone frequents a local restaurant, eats there every day, doesn't pay for it. The restaurant is making a tax loss on this, incurring deductible expenses with no reported revenue. But the person eating the food is the landlord for the restaurant owner's personal apartment and is giving a discount on the rent.

> If you take cash you can just lie and know that if you ever get audited there is no paper trail apart from the one you have created for yourself.

This is also a myth. When you take payment in cash, the buyer gets a receipt. All the IRS has to do is go to your establishment, make an anonymous cash purchase to get a receipt (or get one from any other buyer(s)) and then when they audit you the revenue from that transaction had better be in your records or you're caught.

> all the things I depend on like Medicare and Social Security get underfunded

Note that corporate income taxes don't actually fund Medicare and Social Security at all. Both programs are funded by separate taxes that apply only to wages -- and have an income cap. It's one of the dumbest things in the tax system, but as it stands there is no money going from ordinary net profit-based income taxes to either of those programs regardless of what kind of payment system is in use.

> As a W2 individual, I have no way to avoid taxes in a similar way.

It's not because you file a W2, it's because you're not committing tax fraud. W2 workers who commit tax fraud will e.g. have the company expense a personal laptop and then bring it home without reporting it as income. I would hazard a guess that the majority of W2 workers have at various points used company equipment for personal use without declaring the value as income, and in the more brazen instances of this it makes up the majority of their de facto compensation.

But some of those people also get caught, just like some of the people who don't report payments made in cash.

Re: OpenAI is Visa – Buttering up the government to retain a monopoly

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doesn't explain what regulations Visa pushed for and got which helped it maintain its monopoly. Visa, the organization, is little more than a small clearing house. Credit card issuers (banks) and credit card processors (also banks) define the network in so far as determining what organizations can be "on the visa rails" (also almost exclusively banks).

> Visa ... is little more than a small clearing house worth $600 billion

>> Visa ... is little more than a small clearing house

> worth $600 billion

I think one would find this valuation is in the banks which constitute Visa membership/ownership and not the Visa corporation itself.

Re: OpenAI is Visa – Buttering up the government to retain a monopoly

#163
post #142
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> were to offer me a discount equivalent to what my card issuing bank pays me in cashback and that's exactly why these card networks made the merchant agree in the contract to not do exactly that.

I think that shouldn't be permitted. (As in, be illegal for the card companies to impose or enforce.) On the other hand, most gas stations seem to post credit vs cash prices, so they get away with it. What's the story there? Why don't more merchants do it? It's also contrary to card agreements for merchants to add an extra fee ("it's +0.50 if you use a credit card, is that OK?"), but that doesn't seem to be meaningfu…

It's not 100% enforced, but to the card networks, they dont need 100% enforcement - they just need majority of merchants to comply. Small corner stores and gas stations probably could get away with surcharges, but not big box stores.

Re: OpenAI is Visa – Buttering up the government to retain a monopoly

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if it was only that easy… the US government would basically forbid you from doing business in the US if you violate what us puts into place and very few companies would willingly lose US market

China will absolutely call that bluff, as they have done for the past few decades. The US quite simply does not have the clout to make China back down from anything.

neither country can exist without the other though both have to do a whole lot of posturing domestically and internationally :)

Re: OpenAI is Visa – Buttering up the government to retain a monopoly

#165
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven't dispelled this at all. You literally can't reduce revenue on paper when your business revenue is credit card payments. The payments get reported directly to the IRS by the card processor. You can so much more easily fudge numbers if you take in primarily cash. In both cash and credit scenarios the business owner can increase on-paper expenses to lower tax burden, but there's only so much you can do with t…

> You literally can't reduce revenue on paper when your business revenue is credit card payments. The payments get reported directly to the IRS by the card processor. The revenue isn't on the credit card. Example: You go to the mechanic to have your brake master cylinder replaced. The part is $100 so they charge you $100 for the part and the credit card company says they have $100 in revenue, which gets deducted beca…

I'll start my rebuttal just by saying that it's not just me saying that cash businesses have a higher rate of tax fraud, it's something that's been studied: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01762...

Your mechanic example essentially requires a very specific business scenario to execute. The landlord example is also one that requires a very specific business scenario. E.g., I run a video game studio that is spending the next 3 years working on a game, how is that landlord going to pull off that scam? Are they going to sleep in my conference room at night and deduct it from my rent? In your example the landlord eats at the restaurant every day, but they can't really barter in this way with all their tenants.

The main point is that you with cash you can commit the fraud in the first place, not that you're going to necessarily survive an audit. The IRS from what I can tell audits a fraction of a percent of taxpayers every year and dedictate most of their resources to higher earners. The IRS going to your establishment requires that they dedicate resources to you in the first place.

But there's a really simple mechanism for defeating this cash bar audit example: only commit tax fraud with transactions from the regulars. The IRS agent walks into the bar, is a stranger, and by default their transaction is one of the legit ones. You only run the scam with customers you recognize coming in multiple times over a span of months or years.

I'll give you that Medicare and Social Security aren't paid for by business income...however, a business committing social security tax fraud with paid wages can do so much more easily using cash, so really the argument is similar – in that case it just involving checks and direct deposit instead of cash. An employee insisting on a check or direct deposit is helping ensure tax fraud doesn't happen. I imagine it's even easier to lie about hours than it is to lie about receipts, or exchange a mix of goods and money for labor. Heck, with cash, the employee doesn't even have to exist as an employee. How is the IRS going to know that you actually have two dishwashers and not one? Pay the undocumented dishwasher's salary from the cash transactions from the regulars.

As a W2 employee I have no way to avoid taxes because I have no money flowing that isn't reported to the IRS. And this idea that a large amount of W2 employees are using company assets for personal use is pretty silly, most probably don't even have any assets from the company. And, no, going on Amazon on your company laptop to buy socks doesn't qualify as significant enough personal use to equate to tax fraud.

Re: OpenAI is Visa – Buttering up the government to retain a monopoly

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm shocked, shocked, to discover that in the land of the "free market" the market optimizes for corporate profit not low prices. This is not news. In the US people vote for politicians who promise low regulation, business friendly and "economy" priorities. Those politicians run with corporate money and favor corporations. Other places (like the EU) have people who vote differently and have more appetite for reigning…

> In the US people vote for politicians who promise low regulation, business friendly and "economy" priorities. People vote for those politicians because that's what they want. But is the problem with what they want, or what they get? Regulatory capture that puts up barriers to anyone trying to compete with the incumbents is neither "low regulation" nor what people want, but it's the status quo in the US.

It’s lower friction and more palatable to influence what people believe they want than it is to refuse to give them what they want.

Re: OpenAI is Visa – Buttering up the government to retain a monopoly

#167
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point here a little bit. To break this down more simply: Credit cards: Merchants pay 3% and pass the cost on to the customer, IRS gets the vast majority of business taxes paid (no way to under-report taxable income), average person gets all the benefits of a fully funded government plus 1-2% of their purchase back in credit card rewards. Average person also gets a revolving credit line with…

> Merchants pay 3% and pass the cost on to the customer, […] average person gets all the benefits of a fully funded government plus 1-2% of their purchase back in credit card rewards. And if you're below-average (i.e., poor or otherwise 'unwanted') and don't have a credit card then you are paying higher prices without any benefit: * https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/27/lower-income-americans-pay-f... * https://www.vox.com…

I totally agree, but we also can’t pretend that handling cash costs zero dollars.

That’s only really the case for the tiniest businesses with zero employees.

I think the phenomenon of the poor subsidizing the rich is just sort of how all of life works. The more affluent in society always get the better deal on everything.

Re: OpenAI is Visa – Buttering up the government to retain a monopoly

#168
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point here a little bit. To break this down more simply: Credit cards: Merchants pay 3% and pass the cost on to the customer, IRS gets the vast majority of business taxes paid (no way to under-report taxable income), average person gets all the benefits of a fully funded government plus 1-2% of their purchase back in credit card rewards. Average person also gets a revolving credit line with…

Consumer friendly is not the only thing we should care about. It’s also utterly fucked that it’s a system that disproportionately rewards people for being wealthy as richer people have access to better cards

I think it’s not surprising, the wealthy get better access to better everything. They can buy higher quality goods and be more discerning, they get better loan terms. Everything about life is better for those with more money.

This isn’t to say I don’t agree with you.

Re: OpenAI is Visa – Buttering up the government to retain a monopoly

#169
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Back in the 90s, I had an American Express Gold Card, probably the premier travel card at the time. It was expensive, but for my specific situation, the travel benefits were basically making me $500 a year, alot of money for me. People with good credit have access to better cards. It’s about people who pay their shit on time, not wealth.

And I'd be willing to wager that the ability to pay bills on time might be somewhat correlated to wealth. What you're giving is a rationalization for why the economic landscape of credit cards looks the way it does, which is useful for understanding it, but not at all the same thing as a justification for that being desirable for society as a whole. We have a perfectly fine mechanism for making lending cheaper for pe…

[deleted]

Re: OpenAI is Visa – Buttering up the government to retain a monopoly

#170
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You literally can't reduce revenue on paper when your business revenue is credit card payments. The payments get reported directly to the IRS by the card processor. The revenue isn't on the credit card. Example: You go to the mechanic to have your brake master cylinder replaced. The part is $100 so they charge you $100 for the part and the credit card company says they have $100 in revenue, which gets deducted beca…

I'll start my rebuttal just by saying that it's not just me saying that cash businesses have a higher rate of tax fraud, it's something that's been studied: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01762... Your mechanic example essentially requires a very specific business scenario to execute. The landlord example is also one that requires a very specific business scenario. E.g., I run a video game stu…

> I'll start my rebuttal just by saying that it's not just me saying that cash businesses have a higher rate of tax fraud, it's something that's been studied: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01762...

The study starts with the questionable premise that broadband deployment is associated with digital payments and ATMs per capita are associated with cash payments, but ecommerce sites are some of the least bandwidth-intensive and fully usable on ancient networks, and ATMs per capita is going to have all kinds of arbitrary confounders like population density, average income or number of local banking institutions that make it a poor proxy for cash use.

They then proceed to exclude the types of tax fraud that don't use cash. Of course, this invalidates the result: If Alice and Bob are both cheating on their taxes and Alice accepts credit cards and does the cheating through cross-border transfer pricing and Bob does it through not reporting cash payments then you're going to find that red cars are associated with crashes involving red cars, but that doesn't even imply that most crashes involve red cars, nor does it imply that you can reduce overall crashes by banning red cars.

Then it gets even worse. They try to compare it to data on tax evasion, but such data is by definition speculation because tax evaders don't disclose that they're doing it and you only know about the ones that get caught. So then you have a study implying that the tax evaders who use cash are more likely to get caught, which leads to a different conclusion than the one they're advocating.

> Your mechanic example essentially requires a very specific business scenario to execute.

Not really. The general business model of "you hire someone for a job that results in scrap and they dispose of the scrap" is extremely common in everything from equipment repairs to construction to trash hauling.

> The landlord example is also one that requires a very specific business scenario.

It isn't required that every type of business use the same method; various businesses would use a method tailored to their business.

> E.g., I run a video game studio that is spending the next 3 years working on a game, how is that landlord going to pull off that scam?

E.g. landlord gets shares in the company at a discount in exchange for the owner getting a discount on their personal rent.

> In your example the landlord eats at the restaurant every day, but they can't really barter in this way with all their tenants.

They don't have to barter with all their tenants. Unless you're talking about a huge skyscraper, the rent on one unit will be of approximately the right magnitude to erase the net profit on the whole building.

> The main point is that you with cash you can commit the fraud in the first place, not that you're going to necessarily survive an audit. The IRS from what I can tell audits a fraction of a percent of taxpayers every year and dedictate most of their resources to higher earners. The IRS going to your establishment requires that they dedicate resources to you in the first place.

That's the same as any other type of tax fraud. If you make up and deduct entirely fictional business expenses, someone has to ask for the receipts before you get caught.

> But there's a really simple mechanism for defeating this cash bar audit example: only commit tax fraud with transactions from the regulars. The IRS agent walks into the bar, is a stranger, and by default their transaction is one of the legit ones. You only run the scam with customers you recognize coming in multiple times over a span of months or years.

By which point you've much limited the number of transactions that could go unreported, and you still have the possibility to get caught if you have a dispute with any of the regulars and they turn you in, or the government puts in the work to do a long-term investigation.

Also, how is this anything specifically to do with cash? If the landlord is charging lower rent because they get to eat in the restaurant, how is that any easier for the IRS to detect unless they turn on each other?

> however, a business committing social security tax fraud with paid wages can do so much more easily using cash, so really the argument is similar – in that case it just involving checks and direct deposit instead of cash.

Except that employee wages are business expenses and they'd be losing more by failing to claim the deduction than they'd be paying in FICA.

> or exchange a mix of goods and money for labor.

Which is exactly what happens with electronic payments. The employee is nominally paid $1000 but is actually paid $1000 and an undisclosed amount of goods, with only the $1000 showing up in the bank transfer.

> And this idea that a large amount of W2 employees are using company assets for personal use is pretty silly, most probably don't even have any assets from the company.

Historically it was extremely common to have things like company cars and comped meals. The current rules generally now require that stuff to be counted as employee income and taxed, so it has largely disappeared from large corporate employers that don't openly engage in tax fraud, but you can guess what happens in a lot of small businesses where the family has a vehicle registered to the business and deducted as a business expense etc., or places where employees have access to company vehicles or other equipment and managers DGAF.

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