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Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

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Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#161

Post by tzs »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #34
hypeatei wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? The current PC gaming model where things run on a machine controlled by the user is fundamentally against solving the issue of cheats. You can't prevent everything server-side.

Not our problem. The problem of cheating in games does not weigh more than the users ultimate ownership of and control over their own property. No one has a right to a business model. They can do plenty enough server-side. It's not a blocking problem at all, it's just easier to take over all control of the users pc for your own convenience. Everything, including all valid goals, is easier if you could just have the p…

> Not our problem

It is if you want to be allowed to play with other people because...

> The problem of cheating in games does not weigh more than the users ultimate ownership of and control over their own property

...when you play a multiplayer game what happens on your property affects what happens on the property of the other players and often also on the property of the game company. If you want to be allowed to do that you might have to agree to do some things on your property because...

> No one has a right to a business model

...no one has a right to play any particular multiplayer game.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#162

Post by kelnos »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #38
doublerabbit wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What decides critical or non-critical. One could argue that a game isn't critical but one could say it's critical to stop hackers. If you were to take the stance that gaming isn't critical than with that logic you're then claiming multiplayer hacking is a feature of the game. Doesn't do well for the community or the company. But nor do the rootkits do good for the consumer.

> one could say it's critical to stop hackers. It's never critical to stop hackers in a videogame IMO. We need to stop being so damn serious about gaming .

I think you're framing this the wrong way.

Is it fun to be a non-cheater, and join a multi-player game where there are other players using software cheats that let them easily beat you every single time?

I'm pretty sure I would quickly stop playing that game, and demand the publisher refund my money. That's just not fun.

And that's just as a casual gamer. For people who compete and win prizes, endorsements, etc., the stakes are a bit higher.

I'm not saying kernel-level rootkits installed on everyone's machine is the answer, but letting people cheat isn't going to work either.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#163

Post by lomase »

bitwize wrote: post #144
dmonitor wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most recent study I saw showed that Denuvo significantly helps revenue capture within the first few months of a game's release https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S18759...

[flagged]

As Gabe Newell said "piracy is a service problem"

I could pirate every game I have on my Steam account. I don't do it because the added value that Steam gives me.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#164

Post by vkou »

kelnos wrote: post #159
vkou wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much shit, and how does it compare to the risk profile of, say, not wearing a five points seat belt and motorcycling helmet while driving, or a bulletproof vest when going to school, or an N95 mask literally everywhere? Security theorists are always ready to tell us about the horrifying risks of installing kernel-level code from a vendor, but can they actually quantify the likelihood times damage those billions o…

Funny that you initially used "Joe Ransom" as your example name (before your edit), as that describes one of the possible situations our friend Joe can end up in: malware that encrypts all his data and asks for a ransom to get it back.

Its possible. Roughly how likely is that to happen to him from installing a game with EAC? Are there a lot of documented cases of this?

Is it more or less likely than them dying from the 'Rona because they didn't wear an N95 24/7?

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#166

Post by kelnos »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #71
Thaxll wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheats and bots are ruining online games though.

Perhaps, but it's far better to have cheaters and bots than to have games require a rootkit to play them.

I think that's a matter of opinion.

Personally I find both unacceptable: I won't play a game that requires me to install a rootkit, and I won't play a game where cheaters and bots run rampant, ruining the fun for everyone.

So hopefully there's a solution to this that doesn't require a rootkit.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#167

Post by lomase »

bastard_op wrote: post #137

The problem is since Valve and Proton made windows games viable for Linux and the Steam Deck, most of that anti-cheat vermin does NOT work under Linux. Even if it did, if you run Linux, you likely take some objection to someone wanting to add kernel modules of unknown and/or ill repute to your pretty open-source kernel. Valve knows this, kernel-level anti-cheat is simply not practical for use with Linux as a consider…

I think the end goal of Valve is to support anticheats in Linux. But they want the Kernel to provide an API for it, so you don't need to run the anticheat like a driver.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#168

Post by mattigames »

dark-star wrote: post #154
mattigames wrote: post #14

I still hope someday the European Union forces Steam to allow transferring of games "owned", even if it's time-restricted (e.g. can't transfer the same game twice in a month)

...but you don't buy the game anymore, you acquire a license for using (playing) it. If you want games that you can re-sell, you will have to keep buying them on physical media (or on appstores that don't have DRM like GOG)

I know, that's why I added quotes around "owned", so in other words what I meant is that the EU should force Steam to create the option to transfer that license among its own users.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#169

Post by Jnr »

bastard_op wrote: post #137

The problem is since Valve and Proton made windows games viable for Linux and the Steam Deck, most of that anti-cheat vermin does NOT work under Linux. Even if it did, if you run Linux, you likely take some objection to someone wanting to add kernel modules of unknown and/or ill repute to your pretty open-source kernel. Valve knows this, kernel-level anti-cheat is simply not practical for use with Linux as a consider…

1.9% already :)

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#170

Post by bjackman »

jolmg wrote: post #39

I've never seen a game request root privileges, and I would think installation of anything kernel-level would need that. None of the steam binaries have setuid nor capabilities set. Have anyone seen games that request root privileges? EDIT: I'm gathering from this[1] and the fact that no wine-related package have kernel modules included and no executable from any of those packages have setuid nor capabilities set, th…

Not on Linux. Things are different on Windows, especially if you wanna play competitive games, I'm told.
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