An adult fruit fly brain has been mapped • Hacker News Board

Re: An adult fruit fly brain has been mapped

#161

Post by crispyambulance » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 1:09 PM UTC

Interesting stuff, but I don't understand HOW they've done it.

There's something called Connectome Annotation Versioning Engine (CAVE). Which appears to be software(?) which allows researchers to examine a dataset and annotate it in some way. Presumably the dataset consists of images of the neurons themselves and the job is to map which neurons touch which other neurons? That's the thing I am not understanding. How do they get such images in the first place?

CAVE is mentioned along with electron microscopy... but I don't understand how an electron microscope can be useful here. Obviously, it's not TEM (which required a very flat specimen). Then, there's SEM, but doesn't that require a conductive sample? In both cases, any electron microscope requires a vacuum to even work, right? How can this be done with something so wet, fragile and 3 dimensional like the brain of a fruit fly? Even worse, the connections are stacked on top of each other. How can an electron microscope image below the surface?

TLDR; How is it possible to even image the way the neurons are connected in the first place? ELI5?

Re: An adult fruit fly brain has been mapped

#162

Post by neverrroot » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 1:22 PM UTC

awestroke wrote: post #156

Related: my favorite HN comment ever from a similar submission a year ago: > There's lots of very exciting work going on around the fully mapped fruit fly connectome. For example, I'm a CTO of a stealth startup that aims to do for utilitarianism what carbon credits did for environmentalism. We are selling 'utility credits' which translates directly into us simulating trillions and trillions of fruit fly brains in a s…

About as useful as the carbon credits themselves

Re: An adult fruit fly brain has been mapped

#163

Post by neverrroot » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 1:23 PM UTC

ash1794 wrote: post #157

awestroke wrote: post #156

Related: my favorite HN comment ever from a similar submission a year ago: > There's lots of very exciting work going on around the fully mapped fruit fly connectome. For example, I'm a CTO of a stealth startup that aims to do for utilitarianism what carbon credits did for environmentalism. We are selling 'utility credits' which translates directly into us simulating trillions and trillions of fruit fly brains in a s…

Why!

Feel good, bragging rights, entitlement

Re: An adult fruit fly brain has been mapped

#164

Post by dennis_jeeves2 » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 1:24 PM UTC

pugworthy wrote: post #125

They are currently active in my kitchen. I think those thinking that AI and ML need massive compute power and electricity should take note that these little bastards can be annoying and pervasive as hell with just 100k neurons in that little head. And run off ripe bananas.

Indeed it is miracle of evolution (or a creator if that suit you) to be so efficient.

Re: An adult fruit fly brain has been mapped

#165

Post by rtkwe » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 1:59 PM UTC

ash1794 wrote: post #157

awestroke wrote: post #156

Related: my favorite HN comment ever from a similar submission a year ago: > There's lots of very exciting work going on around the fully mapped fruit fly connectome. For example, I'm a CTO of a stealth startup that aims to do for utilitarianism what carbon credits did for environmentalism. We are selling 'utility credits' which translates directly into us simulating trillions and trillions of fruit fly brains in a s…

Why!

It's a joke about utilitarianism which has had it's ups and downs but is a philosophy that has some pretty powerful adherents in the tech CEO world, notably the whole effective altruist crowd that SBF came out of. There's the Parable of Felix from SMBC [0] coming at it from the other angle of one incredibly happy person skewing the utility equation to do awful things.

[0] https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20120403.gif

Re: An adult fruit fly brain has been mapped

#166

Post by rtkwe » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 2:04 PM UTC

birracerveza wrote: post #160

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have a branding opportunity. Karma Kredits Perhaps a co-branding opportunity with Krispy Kreme donuts? Buy a donut, and experience some Joy, which handily comes with Karma Kredits to offset that Joy. Have some KK with the KK!

And those who have a lot of Karma Kredits can enter the exclusive Karma Kredits Klub!

"We apologize for any negative connotations brought forward by our unfortunate naming of the Karma Kredits Klub and their ceremonial white peaked hats. As compensation we will simulate 50,000 more orgasmic fruit flies. Thank you we will not be taking questions."

Re: An adult fruit fly brain has been mapped

#167

Post by ElevenLathe » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 2:06 PM UTC

awestroke wrote: post #156

Related: my favorite HN comment ever from a similar submission a year ago: > There's lots of very exciting work going on around the fully mapped fruit fly connectome. For example, I'm a CTO of a stealth startup that aims to do for utilitarianism what carbon credits did for environmentalism. We are selling 'utility credits' which translates directly into us simulating trillions and trillions of fruit fly brains in a s…

I think this is probably a riff on something that happens in /Venomous Lumpsucker/ by Ned Beauman. I won't give it away but do highly recommend the book.

Re: An adult fruit fly brain has been mapped

#168

Post by ninetyninenine » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 2:37 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #137

ninetyninenine wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moores law ended.

Depends which of the many similar but subtly different things with that name was meant. In this context, what matters is "how many operations can I get done for a dollar?", and that's still very much improving very fast, albeit not quite as fast as before.

It applied to transistor density and it’s over. Its completely and utterly true and it’s agreed upon by experts.

https://cap.csail.mit.edu/death-moores-law-what-it-means-and....

I’m not making this stuff up.

Re: An adult fruit fly brain has been mapped

#169

Post by coldpie » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 3:07 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #27

bhouston wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is useful. It is like getting a static map of the country's roads with no cars on it. You can not make it come alive with cars (activity), but you can infer where people need to drive but you don't know when and why they drive or what they are doing, but it is a major clue.

> It is like getting a static map of the country's roads with no cars on it. I was thinking it was more like giving somebody iPhone schematics and die shots of all the chips and then asking them to figure out how Portrait Mode works in the Camera app.

Analogies are like banana peels. Rarely useful and they break down pretty quickly.

Re: An adult fruit fly brain has been mapped

#170

Post by bumby » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 3:16 PM UTC

neverrroot wrote: post #162

awestroke wrote: post #156

Related: my favorite HN comment ever from a similar submission a year ago: > There's lots of very exciting work going on around the fully mapped fruit fly connectome. For example, I'm a CTO of a stealth startup that aims to do for utilitarianism what carbon credits did for environmentalism. We are selling 'utility credits' which translates directly into us simulating trillions and trillions of fruit fly brains in a s…

About as useful as the carbon credits themselves

Curious if you could elaborate? It seems like the issue isn’t carbon credits, but the lack of a regulated level of carbon that would make them effective. Market incentives work best with dollar incentives, not virtue points.