Live data from Hacker News

LLMs Will Always Hallucinate, and We Need to Live with This

arxiv.org

161–170 of 274 posts

Re: LLMs Will Always Hallucinate, and We Need to Live with This

#161

> By establishing the mathematical certainty of hallucinations, we challenge the prevailing notion that they can be fully mitigated Having a mathematical proof is nice, but honestly this whole misunderstanding could have been avoided if we'd just picked a different name for the concept of "producing false information in the course of generating probabilistic text". "Hallucination" makes it sound like something is goi…

Would second what you stated

Re: LLMs Will Always Hallucinate, and We Need to Live with This

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this, I've been saying this since the beginning. Every response is a hallucination - a probabilistic string of words divorced from any concept of truth or reality. By total coincidence, some hallucinations happen to reflect the truth, but only because the training data happened to generally be truthful sentences. Therefore, creating something that imitates a truthful sentence will often happen to also be trut…

I think you're going too far here. > By total coincidence, some hallucinations happen to reflect the truth, but only because the training data happened to generally be truthful sentences. It's not a "total coincidence". It's the default. Thus, the model's responses aren't "divorced from any concept of truth or reality" - the whole distribution from which those responses are pulled is strongly aligned with reality. (W…

> It's not a "total coincidence". It's the default. Thus, the model's responses aren't "divorced from any concept of truth or reality" - the whole distribution from which those responses are pulled is strongly aligned with reality.

One big caveat here - the responses are strongly aligned with the training data. We can't necessarily say that the training data itself is strongly aligned with reality.

Re: LLMs Will Always Hallucinate, and We Need to Live with This

#163
Useless trash paper. It's like saying any object can disappear and reappear anywhere in the universe due to quantum physics, so there's no point studying physics or engineering. Just maybe we care if the probability of that happening is 10%, 0.00001%, or 1e-1000%.

Re: LLMs Will Always Hallucinate, and We Need to Live with This

#164
post #5

A key skill necessary to work effectively with LLMs is learning how to use technology that is fundamentally unreliable and non-deterministic. A lot of people appear to find this hurdle almost impossible to overcome.

Honesty and accuracy builds trust. And when you trust something it reduces the cognitive load because you don't have to build a mental model of the different ways it could be deceiving you and how to handle it. Which is why for me at least when I use LLMs I find them useful but stressful.

Everything you said applies to regular search engines too. There's always a cognitive load in using them. Often the load is less with an LLM. Other times it's not.

Can't use either of these tools for all problems. Pick the right tool for the right problem.

Re: LLMs Will Always Hallucinate, and We Need to Live with This

#165

> By establishing the mathematical certainty of hallucinations, we challenge the prevailing notion that they can be fully mitigated Having a mathematical proof is nice, but honestly this whole misunderstanding could have been avoided if we'd just picked a different name for the concept of "producing false information in the course of generating probabilistic text". "Hallucination" makes it sound like something is goi…

It’s still a bug, even if it’s the only way the system can behave as currently designed. I agree that “hallucination” is a poor term for it, though. For medication, we call a bug a “side effect” even though it’s really just a chemical interaction which, given enough information, could be predicted. Ultimately the computer only does what we tell it to do. That has always been the case and probably always will be, just…

I find it helpful to distinguish between bugs and design flaws.

A bug is caused by a poorly implemented version of the design (or a literal bug in the system). Fixing a bug requires identifying where the system varies from the design and bringing it into alignment with the design.

A design flaw is a case where the idealized system as conceived by the engineers is incapable of fully solving the problem statement. Fixing a design flaw may require small tweaks, but it can also mean that the entire solution needs to be thrown out in favor of a new one.

Importantly, what's a design flaw for one problem statement may be just fine or even beneficial for another problem statement. So, more objectively, we might refer to these as design characteristics.

Hallucinations are a special case of two low-level design characteristics of LLMs: first, that they are trained on more data than can reasonably be filtered by a human (and therefore will be exposed to data that the humans wish it weren't) and second, that they produce their text by sampling a distribution of probabilities. These two characteristics mean that controlling the output of an LLM is very very difficult (or, as the article suggests, impossible), leading both to hallucinations and alignment concerns (which are actually the same concept framed slightly differently).

If the problem statement for an LLM application requires more 99% factual accuracy or more than 99% "doesn't produce content that will make investors nervous" accuracy, these design characteristics count as a design flaw.

Re: LLMs Will Always Hallucinate, and We Need to Live with This

#166

When will I see AI dialogue in video games? Imagine a RPG where instead of picking from a series of pre recorded dialogues, you could just talk to that villager. If it worked it would be mind blowing. The first studio to really pull it off in the AAA game would rake in the cash. That seems like the lowest hanging fruit to me, like we would do that long before we have AI going over someone's medical records. If the ma…

As a game developer, I'm absolutely not going to risk my players' engagement with the game by putting character personalities, dialog, and (therefore) plot into the hands of an AI that's going to play out differently for each player. No way, no how. That's where all my game's value is - that's what pays my rent - and I will not be handing it off to a glorified RNG.

Re: LLMs Will Always Hallucinate, and We Need to Live with This

#167
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it will never plug that gap They don't have to be perfect, they just have to be better than humans. And that seems very likely to be achievable eventually.

To be better than humans they have to able confidently say "I don't know" when the correct answer is not available[1]. To me this sounds like a totally different type of "knowledge" than stringing words together based on a training set. [1] LLMs are already better than humans in terms of breadth, and sometimes depth, of knowledge. So it's not a problem of the AI knowing more facts.

> To me this sounds like a totally different type of "knowledge" than stringing words together based on a training set.

We're desperate to keep seeing ourselves as unique with key distinguishing features that are unreproducible in silicon, but from my long experience with computer chess, every step along the way, people were explaining patiently how computers could never reproduce the next quality that set humans apart. And it was always just wishful thinking, because computers eventually stopped looking silly, stopped looking like they were playing by rote, and started to produce "beautiful" chess games.

And it will happen again, after the next leap in AI, people will again latch on to whatever it is that AI systems still lack, and use it to explain how they'll "always" be lacking... only to eventually be disappointed again that silicon can in fact reach that height too.

Humans aren't magic. Whatever we can do, silicon can do too. It's just a matter of time.

Re: LLMs Will Always Hallucinate, and We Need to Live with This

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're going too far here. > By total coincidence, some hallucinations happen to reflect the truth, but only because the training data happened to generally be truthful sentences. It's not a "total coincidence". It's the default. Thus, the model's responses aren't "divorced from any concept of truth or reality" - the whole distribution from which those responses are pulled is strongly aligned with reality. (W…

The problem - as defined by how end users understand it - is that the model itself doesn't know the difference, and will proclaim bullshit with the same level of confidence that it does accurate information. That's how you end up with grocery store chatbots recommending mixing ammonia and bleach for a cocktail, or lawyers using chatbots to cite entirely fictional case law before a judge in court. Nothing that comes o…

> your default assumption must be that everything it gives you needs verification from another source

That depends entirely on what you're doing with the output. If you're using it as a starting point for something that must be true (whether for legal reasons, your own reputation as the ostensible author of this content, your own education, etc.) then yes, verification is required. But if you're using it for something low-stakes that just needs some semblance of coherent verbiage (like the summary of customer reviews on Amazon, or the SEO junk that comes before the recipe on cooking websites which have plenty of fiction whether or not an LLM was involved) then you can totally meet your goals without any verification.

People have been capable of bullshitting at scale for a very long time. There are occasional consequences (hoaxes, scams, etc.) but the guidelines around fide sed vide are ancient; this is just the latest addendum.

Re: LLMs Will Always Hallucinate, and We Need to Live with This

#169
The hallucinations seem to be related to AI's agreeableness. They always seem to tell you what you want to hear except when it goes against significant social narratives.

It's like LLMs know all possible alternative theories (including contradictory ones) and which one it brings up depends on how you phrase the question and how much you already know about the subject.

The more accurate information you bring into the question, the more accurate information you get out of it.

If you're not very knowledgeable, you will only be able to tap into junior level knowledge. If you ask the kinds of questions that an expert would ask, then it will answer like an expert.

Re: LLMs Will Always Hallucinate, and We Need to Live with This

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, humans are at least as bad at it as GPT-4, if not far worse . In terms, specifically, of being "factually accurate" and grounded in absolute reality. Humans operate entirely in the probabilistic realm of what seems right to us based on how we were educated, the values we were raised with, our religious beliefs, etc. -- Human beings are all over the map with this.

> In my experience, humans are at least as bad at it as GPT-4, if not far worse. I had an argument with a former friend recently, because he read some comments on YouTube and was convinced a racoon raped a cat and produced some kind of hybrid offspring that was terrorizing a neighborhood. Trying to explain that different species can't procreate like that resulted in him pointing to the fact that other people believed…

> Trying to explain that different species can't procreate like that resulted in him pointing to the fact that other people believed it in the comments as proof.

Those two species can't interbreed apparently, but considering the number of species that can [1] produce hybrid offspring, some even from different families, it is reasonable to forgive people for entertaining the possibility.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genetic_hybrids

Post reply on HN