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Artificial intelligence is losing hype

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Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#161

Post by CuriouslyC »

grogenaut wrote: post #108
CuriouslyC wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't be. For code bases where context is mostly local they destroy human throughput by comparison. They only fall down hard when used in spaghetti dumpster fire codebases where you have to paste the contents of 6+ files into context or the code crosses a multiple service boundaries to do anything. A competent engineer architects their systems to make their tools as effective as possible, so maybe your idea o…

could you provide some examples, code or repos and questions where it does a good job for you (question can also just be completion). Obviously you're having really good experiences with the tools that other aren't having. I'd definitely appreciate that over a lot of assurances taht I'm doing it wrong with my spaghetti code.

Try these:

Take a SQL schema, and ask AI to generate crud endpoints for the schema, then sit down and code it by yourself. Then try generating client side actions and state management for those endpoints. Time yourself, and compare how long it takes you. Even if you're fast and you cut and paste from template work and quickly hand edit, the AI will be done and on a smoke break before you're even a quarter of the way through.

Ask the AI to generate correctly typed seed data for your database, using realistic values. Again, the AI will be done long before you.

Try porting a library of helper functions from one language to another. This is another task where AI will win handily

Also, ask AI to write unit tests with mocks for your existing code. It's not amazing at integration tests but with mocks in play it slays.

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#162

Post by CuriouslyC »

pdimitar wrote: post #160
CuriouslyC wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sure seem invested in hating AI, what's your problem brother?

I don't "hate" AI because (1) AI does not exist so how can I hate something that doesn't exist? And (2) I don't "hate" a machine, I cringe at people who make grand claims with zero proof. Yes. Zero. Not small, not infinitesimal -- zero. I just can't make peace with the fact that I inhabit the same planet as people who can't make elementary distinctions.

I can't make peace that I'm on the same planet as people who can't use google worth a shit: https://mitsloan.mit.edu/ideas-made-to-matter/how-generative...

And yet somehow want to act high and mighty and be insulting as fuck.

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#163

Post by pdimitar »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #162
pdimitar wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't "hate" AI because (1) AI does not exist so how can I hate something that doesn't exist? And (2) I don't "hate" a machine, I cringe at people who make grand claims with zero proof. Yes. Zero. Not small, not infinitesimal -- zero. I just can't make peace with the fact that I inhabit the same planet as people who can't make elementary distinctions.

I can't make peace that I'm on the same planet as people who can't use google worth a shit: https://mitsloan.mit.edu/ideas-made-to-matter/how-generative... And yet somehow want to act high and mighty and be insulting as fuck.

You failed to mention the word "can", which is a theoretical.

We can all Google stuff because internet is big and supports anyone's views, which means it's more important than ever to be informed and be able to infer well. Something that you seem to want to defer to sources that support your beliefs. Not nice finding that on a hacker forum but statistical outliers exist.

Live long and prosper. And be insulted, I suppose.

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#164

Post by K0balt »

pdimitar wrote: post #159
K0balt wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, I’ve talked to a lot of people who cannot consistently perform at the mistral-12b level. I think we expect AGI to be much smarter than the average joe, and free of occasional stupidity. What we’ve got is an 85IQ generalist with unreliable savant capabilities, that can also talk to a million people at the same time without getting distracted. I don’t see how that isn’t absolutely a fundamental shift in cap…

> What we’ve got is an 85IQ generalist with unreliable savant capabilities, that can also talk to a million people at the same time without getting distracted. I don’t see how that isn’t absolutely a fundamental shift in capability. Very shallow assessment, first of all it's not a generalist at all, it has zero concept of what it's talking about, secondly it gets confused easily unless you order it to keep context in…

HJ is Homeless Joe, an inference that a 12b stochastic text generator would not have missed lol. But sure, ill reflect in 10 years.

TBH I hope im wrong, and that there is magic in HJ that makes him special in the universe in a way that GPT26 can never be. But increasingly, I doubt this premise. Not because of the "amazing capabilities of LLMs" which i think are frequently overstated and largely misunderstood, but more because of the dumbfounding shortcomings of intelligent creatures. We keep moving the bar for AGI, and now AGI is assumed to be what any rational accounting would classfy as ASI.

Where we are really going to see the bloom of AI is in goal directed systems, and I think those will come naturally with robotics. I predict we are in for a very abrupt 2nd industrial revolution, and you and I will be able to have this discussion either over a 55 gallon barrel of burning trash, or in our robot manicured botanical gardens sometime in the near future lol.

good times, maybe. Interesting times , for sure.

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#165

Post by NoGravitas »

pdimitar wrote: post #136
knowaveragejoe wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use multiple daily and have definitely seen a productivity boost. If nothing else, it saves typing. But I'd argue they are in essence a better search engine - it answers "you don't know what you don't know" questions very well, providing a jumping off point when my conception of how to achieve something with code or tooling is vague.

Typing is, or at least it should be, the least of your time spent during the day doing programming. I don't find optimizing the 5-10% of my workday spent typing impressive, or even worth mentioning. Granted there are languages where typing takes much more time, like Java and C# but... eh. They are quite overdue for finding better syntax anyway! :)

The languages where typing takes more time also tend to have IDE support to mitigate that --- in a deterministic way, unlike CoPilot.

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#166

Post by linuxftw »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #161
grogenaut wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

could you provide some examples, code or repos and questions where it does a good job for you (question can also just be completion). Obviously you're having really good experiences with the tools that other aren't having. I'd definitely appreciate that over a lot of assurances taht I'm doing it wrong with my spaghetti code.

Try these: Take a SQL schema, and ask AI to generate crud endpoints for the schema, then sit down and code it by yourself. Then try generating client side actions and state management for those endpoints. Time yourself, and compare how long it takes you. Even if you're fast and you cut and paste from template work and quickly hand edit, the AI will be done and on a smoke break before you're even a quarter of the way…

Your experience mirrors mine. I use ChatGPT or meta for boiler plate code like this. I write golang at my day job, and there's a lot of boiler plat for that language, saves a lot of time, but most importantly, does the tedious boring things I hate doing.

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#167

Post by dartos »

bamboozled wrote: post #86
dartos wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've trained as a neuroscientist and written a book about consciousness This has to do with ML and numerical computing, how?

Well I was being sarcastic. I really dislike it when people have to first convince you that you should trust them. Either make a good argument or don’t.

Oh, I was bamboozled.

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#168

Post by pdimitar »

K0balt wrote: post #164
pdimitar wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What we’ve got is an 85IQ generalist with unreliable savant capabilities, that can also talk to a million people at the same time without getting distracted. I don’t see how that isn’t absolutely a fundamental shift in capability. Very shallow assessment, first of all it's not a generalist at all, it has zero concept of what it's talking about, secondly it gets confused easily unless you order it to keep context in…

HJ is Homeless Joe, an inference that a 12b stochastic text generator would not have missed lol. But sure, ill reflect in 10 years. TBH I hope im wrong, and that there is magic in HJ that makes him special in the universe in a way that GPT26 can never be. But increasingly, I doubt this premise. Not because of the "amazing capabilities of LLMs" which i think are frequently overstated and largely misunderstood, but mor…

> Not because of the "amazing capabilities of LLMs" which i think are frequently overstated and largely misunderstood

We have found common ground.

> but more because of the dumbfounding shortcomings of intelligent creatures

Yes, a lot of us utilize defective judgments, myself included, fairly often. My point was that LLMs, for all their praise, can't even reach 10% of an average semi-intelligent organic being.

> We keep moving the bar for AGI, and now AGI is assumed to be what any rational accounting would classfy as ASI.

I don't know who is "we" (and I wish people stopped pretending that "we" are all a homogenous mass) but I've known what an AGI should be ever since I've watched movies about Skynet and HAL-9000. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Secondly, it's the so-called "AI practitioners" who constantly move the goal posts (now there's "ASI"? -- you know what, I actually don't want to know) because they're periodically being called out and can't hide the fact that they have nearly nothing again. So what's better than obfuscating that fact by having 100+ acronyms? It's a nice cover and apparently there are still investors who are buying it. I get it, we have to learn to say the right things to get funding.

> Where we are really going to see the bloom of AI is in goal directed systems, and I think those will come naturally with robotics.

I agree. Physical feedback is needed if we want an electronic entity to "evolve" similarly to us.

> I predict we are in for a very abrupt 2nd industrial revolution, and you and I will be able to have this discussion either over a 55 gallon barrel of burning trash, or in our robot manicured botanical gardens sometime in the near future lol.

I agree this is 100% inevitable but I don't think it's coming as soon as you say. The LLMs are hopelessly stuck even today and the whole AI area will suffer for it for a while after the bubble bursts... which is the event that I am certain is coming soon.

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#169

Post by NoGravitas »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #161
grogenaut wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

could you provide some examples, code or repos and questions where it does a good job for you (question can also just be completion). Obviously you're having really good experiences with the tools that other aren't having. I'd definitely appreciate that over a lot of assurances taht I'm doing it wrong with my spaghetti code.

Try these: Take a SQL schema, and ask AI to generate crud endpoints for the schema, then sit down and code it by yourself. Then try generating client side actions and state management for those endpoints. Time yourself, and compare how long it takes you. Even if you're fast and you cut and paste from template work and quickly hand edit, the AI will be done and on a smoke break before you're even a quarter of the way…

Most of the things you list can be done deterministically, without the risk of AI errors. The first one in particular is just scaffolding that Visual Studio has had for Entity Framework and ASP.NET MVC for a decade now. And if you were using, e.g., LISP, you'd just write a DEFCRUD macro for it once, and re-use it for every similar project.

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#170

Post by pdimitar »

NoGravitas wrote: post #165
pdimitar wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typing is, or at least it should be, the least of your time spent during the day doing programming. I don't find optimizing the 5-10% of my workday spent typing impressive, or even worth mentioning. Granted there are languages where typing takes much more time, like Java and C# but... eh. They are quite overdue for finding better syntax anyway! :)

The languages where typing takes more time also tend to have IDE support to mitigate that --- in a deterministic way, unlike CoPilot.

True.
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