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NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

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Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#161

Post by inetknght »

Mistletoe wrote: post #144
sgnelson wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the OIG report, it states: "Michoud officials stated that it has been difficult to attract and retain a contractor workforce with aerospace manufacturing experience in part due to Michoud’s geographical location in New Orleans, Louisiana, and lower employee compensation relative to other aerospace competitors."

New Orleans is one of the greatest cities in the world and definitely has access to experienced welders, this argument makes no sense to me.

> this argument makes no sense to me

Might want to remember that experienced welders demand stronger compensation. Can't have that compensation going to the wrong people, though. Boeing can't survive as a business if it had to compensate fairly!

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#163

Post by _moof »

okanat wrote: post #35
akira2501 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're the only nation that has ever done it. It seems like unchecked graft is our current main problem. In the scope of all problems of returning people to the Moon this is both expected and the easiest to deal with.

When that was happening, the US was spending ungodly amount of money to show Soviets that they can take ~a nuke~ sorry people to the Moon and back. Boeing, Lockheed etc. were still engineering oriented companies full of projects and management opportunities for innovative and risk-taking people. Starting with the Reagan era, they are now emptied out rent seekers full of car salesmen who look up to Jack Welch as a rol…

And there were a lot more players in aerospace then too. Apart from Boeing and Lockheed, Apollo also involved North American Aviation, Grumman, Rocketdyne, General Dynamics, Pratt & Whitney, Douglas, TRW, and Bell. Of those, only General Dynamics and Pratt & Whitney have not been acquired or merged into other companies.

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#164

Post by wonderwonder »

PopePompus wrote: post #8

I don't know which is a better illustration of America's decline during my baby boomer lifetime - California High Speed Rail vs The Interstate Highway System or Artemis vs Apollo.

I watched the Superman movie with my kids the other day and I wondered how a planet like Krypton could just collapse after all its accomplishments. It seemed unrealistic. I totally understand now.

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#165

Post by Nicholas_C »

Mistletoe wrote: post #144
sgnelson wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the OIG report, it states: "Michoud officials stated that it has been difficult to attract and retain a contractor workforce with aerospace manufacturing experience in part due to Michoud’s geographical location in New Orleans, Louisiana, and lower employee compensation relative to other aerospace competitors."

New Orleans is one of the greatest cities in the world and definitely has access to experienced welders, this argument makes no sense to me.

There have to be a lot of welders in that region due to the oil and gas and heavy industry. If there aren't enough welders there I don't know what area would have enough. As others have said, maybe they're not paying them enough?

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#166

Post by Terr_ »

eddiewithzato wrote: post #115
sgnelson wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the OIG report, it states: "Michoud officials stated that it has been difficult to attract and retain a contractor workforce with aerospace manufacturing experience in part due to Michoud’s geographical location in New Orleans, Louisiana, and lower employee compensation relative to other aerospace competitors."

aka they aren’t willing to pay, many such cases.

Their wages are fine, there is simply a shortage of labor which is everybody's problem and needs government intervention in the form of tax dollars or something. /s

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#167

Post by ethbr1 »

andrewflnr wrote: post #116
ethbr1 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a great scene at the end of Generation Kill where the war reporter asks the commander why he didn't reprimand one of the worst leaders underneath him more harshly. The commander essentially says that he constantly receives conflicting reports about his leaders' performance, and if he relieved one for unproven reports, his command would disintegrate. Because the good leaders have equal numbers of bad reports a…

This is why the real answer is that the manager needs to know how to weld too, so they can independently validate Bob's and Steve's work.

That's one answer. Although manager technical expertise has to also come with minimal ego, so you can defer to your people when they know more than you.

The alternative is developing an intuition for bullshit. It's rarer, but I've had a few non-technical PMs / managers who were excellent at their job because they could suss out whether someone wasn't being honest.

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#168

Post by andrewflnr »

ethbr1 wrote: post #167
andrewflnr wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why the real answer is that the manager needs to know how to weld too, so they can independently validate Bob's and Steve's work.

That's one answer. Although manager technical expertise has to also come with minimal ego, so you can defer to your people when they know more than you. The alternative is developing an intuition for bullshit. It's rarer, but I've had a few non-technical PMs / managers who were excellent at their job because they could suss out whether someone wasn't being honest.

Everything has to come with minimal ego. I don't see how that has anything to do with managers having technical knowledge.

And it's great if a handful of people can smell out bs in a field they're not familiar with, but you can't write policy on the back of a few unicorns like that. (Yes, managing ego is hard too, but I believe it's more common to start with and more trainable.)

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#169

Post by ipaddr »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #155
wmf wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire purpose of SLS is to create high-paying jobs and they just... didn't. Imagine having a blank check and cheaping out. Amazing.

If you can get away with the share buybacks and other self enrichment, with no accountability mechanisms, this is a natural outcome based on who is in charge of these companies. But, if we were to have made these workers government employees to pay them the desired wages (and cut out the management and shareholder middlemen) as well as “pay, train, retrain”, we would have been laughed at as promoting government waste…

Why would the qualified people who desire to work in that location and have better options suddenly work for the government. If the idea is to train non-experienced people that's what Boeing did. What is going to prevent them for leaving for other local work that pays better once they have some experience.

What the government should have done is reduce their pay for missing deadlines by having milestones in the contract. At that point paying more makes economic sense and wages would rise.

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#170

Post by hnthrowaway0315 »

whatshisface wrote: post #50
cqqxo4zV46cp wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What “the US” did 50+ years ago has absolutely no say in what “the US” can do now.

Our GDP is about 50x higher now than it was then, in real terms.

The spirit is different.
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