Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 267 posts

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#161

Post by lupusreal »

ajross wrote: post #101

The headline is spun. The text of the article doesn't allege "counterfeit titanium", only that the paperwork chain contains (according I guess to an audit done internally at Spirit) counterfeit documents . What that says about the metal itself is unknown. It seems more likely to me to be legitimate but stolen titanium than it does to be fake material. It's not really feasible to fake something like a raw metal. Nothi…

It's not spun, you're just being overly literal. They're not talking about pure elemental titanium, alloy is implicit here. And even if it were a matter of pure titanium, passing off an alloy as that would also make it counterfeit.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#162

Post by Gibbon1 »

lupusreal wrote: post #155
ajross wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but to be fair the reporting is incomplete because the Boeing-maintained records of the maintenance were incomplete in seemingly-deliberate ways. So... we just don't know. At least one, plausibly two bad guys there.

As far as I can make out, Spirit employees (probably with the knowledge and tacit approval of management, because that's the way these things usually go) found a loophole in the record system that allowed them to avoid triggering QA checks. Boeing has blame for creating a system with such a loophole, or failing to find it before it was used, but it was Spirit personnel who actually used it.

Reminds me of an MBA that worked for a customer. Figured out how to silently force various production tests in order to ship product faster.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#163

Post by mhh__ »

nszceta wrote: post #90
tim333 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not exactly counterfeit parts. It's that the paperwork for the titanium supplied wasn't right. So I guess it could be ok titanium with just bad paperwork rather than bad titanium. Also I guess it costs a lot to change.

[flagged]

You've been downvoted with no retort.

Can anyone in the know comment if there's truth to the hypothesis?

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#164

Post by _moof »

Retric wrote: post #136

Critically the material is still titanium. Some of the paperwork is counterfeit so there’s concerns around quality control etc not what it is. > Spirit is trying to determine where the titanium came from, whether it meets proper standards despite its phony documentation, and whether the parts made from the material are structurally sound enough to hold up through the projected life spans of the jets, company official…

Unfortunately it's not enough for it to just be titanium. A hard alpha inclusion in an ingot used to make turbine blades was the root cause of the deaths of 112 people aboard United Airlines 232.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#165

Post by type0 »

bpodgursky wrote: post #108
ajross wrote: post #101

The headline is spun. The text of the article doesn't allege "counterfeit titanium", only that the paperwork chain contains (according I guess to an audit done internally at Spirit) counterfeit documents . What that says about the metal itself is unknown. It seems more likely to me to be legitimate but stolen titanium than it does to be fake material. It's not really feasible to fake something like a raw metal. Nothi…

It's likely laundered through China from Russia bypass avoid sanctions.

https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2024-03-21/russia-wa...

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#166

Post by Jtsummers »

mhh__ wrote: post #163
nszceta wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You've been downvoted with no retort. Can anyone in the know comment if there's truth to the hypothesis?

I didn't downvote them, but didn't upvote either. "Chinesium" - the supplier it was traced to is Chinese, but the source is unknown beyond that because the documents are falsified. It's also not yet clear if there is a quality issue, the tested parts and materials are turning out ok so far but the lack of provenance makes it difficult to know with any confidence how long the material will last. It could be the right alloy but a low quality production process that will permit much earlier than anticipated failures (potentially critical ones, it's used in both structural and mechanical parts).

That's part of why they're investigating how to replace parts made from it, the quality is unknown since there's no way to verify the certifications passed on through the suppliers since it's already known that the certificates are lies.

For all we know, this is Russian in source but given false documents to get it sold on the open market bypassing some sanctions or getting some oligarch sitting on a supply some extra money.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#167

Post by [deleted] »

_moof wrote: post #164
Retric wrote: post #136

Critically the material is still titanium. Some of the paperwork is counterfeit so there’s concerns around quality control etc not what it is. > Spirit is trying to determine where the titanium came from, whether it meets proper standards despite its phony documentation, and whether the parts made from the material are structurally sound enough to hold up through the projected life spans of the jets, company official…

Unfortunately it's not enough for it to just be titanium. A hard alpha inclusion in an ingot used to make turbine blades was the root cause of the deaths of 112 people aboard United Airlines 232.

[deleted]

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#168

Post by bitcharmer »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #131
BooneJS wrote: post #124

The FAA has their hands full investigating problems _after_ they become problems. Are airplanes in a race to the bottom or is there an opportunity to inject quality and reliability into this industry?

> FAA has their hands full investigating problems _after_ they become problems The FAA is constantly auditing, certifying and testing airmen, airplanes and plants. They have their hands full. But it's totally incorrect to say they're an ex post facto investigations agency.

Are you talking about the same FAA that allowed Boeing people to certify themselves?

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#169

Post by bitcharmer »

nszceta wrote: post #90
tim333 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not exactly counterfeit parts. It's that the paperwork for the titanium supplied wasn't right. So I guess it could be ok titanium with just bad paperwork rather than bad titanium. Also I guess it costs a lot to change.

[flagged]

You do realise there's a very good reason for those sanctions, don't you.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#170

Post by [deleted] »

filleduchaos wrote: post #154
throwaway9143 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm selling croissants." Gives you Haggis. "Well it's all food so what's the big deal, stop regulating me."

That doesn't describe this case at all though? It's more like you got your croissants but without a name brand or receipt.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN