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Oracle dumps Terraform for OpenTofu

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Re: Oracle dumps Terraform for OpenTofu

#161

Post by erik_seaberg »

fishnchips wrote: post #157
erik_seaberg wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert but from a quick glance at https://www.pulumi.com/docs/concepts/state/#using-a-self-man... it looks like this might work: client A lists s3://bucket/prefix/.pulumi/locks/, sees nothing client B lists s3://bucket/prefix/.pulumi/locks/, sees nothing client A creates s3://bucket/prefix/.pulumi/locks/unique1.json client A lists s3://bucket/prefix/.pulumi/locks/, only sees unique1.json, and proceeds client B…

In this case you have the opposite issue, with no-one actually guaranteed to get a lock even though nothing is holding one. Fuzzed retries may work in practice but theoretically speaking this is a flawed algorithm.

Hm, I can sort of imagine a way to use lockfile names to claim a random position in a queue of pending changes, but I don't know if anyone has been worried enough to do that. In practice Pulumi seems to give up instead of retrying: https://github.com/pulumi/docs/issues/11679

Re: Oracle dumps Terraform for OpenTofu

#162

Post by NewJazz »

culi wrote: post #116
zug_zug wrote: post #92

Slightly off-topic, but one of my greatest pet-peeves of working in devops is every few years a new "killer tech" comes out that some contingent of very-highly-opinionated (though not always very senior) people insists is life-and-death stakes and wants the whole company to move to (e.g. terraform). Too often it's a failure. Too often it has some upsides, but also is a LOT of work that is discovered over time. Too of…

If you think devops has it bad, don't ever work in front-end. Or web development in general

Lol @ svelte's reactive statements being lauded then runed.

Re: Oracle dumps Terraform for OpenTofu

#163

Post by paulddraper »

bloopernova wrote: post #124
cube2222 wrote: post #89

It's great to see more companies adopting OpenTofu, and especially larger ones! As a side note, we've recently released OpenTofu 1.7 with end-to-end state encryption, enhanced provider-defined functions, and a bunch more[0]. If you've been holding out with the migration, now is the perfect moment to take another look, and join the many companies that have already migrated! [0]: https://github.com/opentofu/opentofu/re…

Are there any plans for a conditional way to enable/disable modules that doesn't use "count"? For example: # current method module "foo" { count = var.enable_foo ? 1 : 0 } # better? module "bar" { enabled = var.enable_bar } Preconditions and postconditions fail the apply run if their condition doesn't validate, so those can't be used. I'd also really like to be able to say in an output block, "this value doesn't have…

Use CDKTF.

All of these "how can I do X in HCL" just go away.

Re: Oracle dumps Terraform for OpenTofu

#164

Post by hamandcheese »

cdchn wrote: post #101
hamandcheese wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What really grinds my gears is how hard it is to refactor terraform code. Put something in a module, but want to move it elsewhere? Get ready for pain. I've been using terranix, which uses nix to generate a tf.json file, and oh my god is the experience night and day. I can make functions! I can refactor! And if it's a pure refactor, there is nothing to apply.

How does terranix help you with the "move a resource from a module to somewhere else" problem?

It helps because you don't use terraform modules at all, any abstraction you need can be done in nix before tf.json gets written.

Re: Oracle dumps Terraform for OpenTofu

#165

Post by hamandcheese »

JohnMakin wrote: post #103
hamandcheese wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What really grinds my gears is how hard it is to refactor terraform code. Put something in a module, but want to move it elsewhere? Get ready for pain. I've been using terranix, which uses nix to generate a tf.json file, and oh my god is the experience night and day. I can make functions! I can refactor! And if it's a pure refactor, there is nothing to apply.

I know many people find it painful but isn't this fairly simple with "terraform state mv?" my process is roughly: comment out the resource in the module, run a plan -> get output like: "module.foo1.aws_resource.bar will be deleted" Then copy my resource in source to module.foo2.aws_resource.bar, the command becomes: terraform state mv module.foo1.aws_resource.bar module.foo2.aws_resource.bar I guess this might be har…

Yea, there are tools to work around it, but the fact that a pure refactor would impact terraform state at all is the design flaw in my eyes.

Suddenly, just to refactor the source in a way that shouldn't touch any resources, you have to have be able to mutate the terraform state. (Or use the more recently introduced moved blocks, which is still quite a big kludge).

This means any kind of broadly sweeping refactor (which might impact many different state files) is really hard.

Re: Oracle dumps Terraform for OpenTofu

#166

Post by hamandcheese »

rjbwork wrote: post #130
JohnMakin wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know many people find it painful but isn't this fairly simple with "terraform state mv?" my process is roughly: comment out the resource in the module, run a plan -> get output like: "module.foo1.aws_resource.bar will be deleted" Then copy my resource in source to module.foo2.aws_resource.bar, the command becomes: terraform state mv module.foo1.aws_resource.bar module.foo2.aws_resource.bar I guess this might be har…

You don't even need to do state mv anymore. They added the `moved` block a while ago. You can then delete it from the source after your apply at your leisure.

"Every change requires two PRs that aren't in the same terraform run" still way way way too much mental overhead just to do a simple refactor.

Re: Oracle dumps Terraform for OpenTofu

#167

Post by scarface_74 »

zug_zug wrote: post #158
scarface_74 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to technology. Yes, I too wish I could make a living programming in 65C02 assembly on my Apple //e like I did in 1986. I also don’t see any reason I have to learn about S3 instead of storing all of my files on an on prem CDRW jukebox

No, it's not inevitable. There are many technologies that will outlast my whole career: java, sql, tcp/ip, linux, to name a few. S3 will also certainly be around in 20 years.

That’s true. But when I was first learning Java, Java beans and Java Server Pages were the hotness. The last time I did production code in Java was writing Android apps that required knowing the Android SDK.

Programming in Java in 2024 is nothing like it was in the 1990s when it was first embedded in Netscape Navigator - yeah I played around with it back then.

When I was first using C and C++, I was writing Windows apps with MFC in 1999. Good luck if that’s all you know in 2024z

I’ve been at this awhile. I started writing C and Fortran apps on DEC Vax and Stratus VOS mainframes in 1996z

My second job was part development and part managing Windows servers on prem running IIS and Classic ASP.

I got my first, only, and hopefully last job at BigTech in the cloud consulting department at 46 (full time role) consulting companies on all of the latest “serverless” goodness.

Either evolve or end up complaining on HN about “ageism”. When I got Amazoned at 49 last year, it took all of three weeks to have multiple offers. I’ll put my buzzword compliance against anyone of any age in my niches.

While “tcp/ip” will be around as will assembly language. I’ve programmed in assembly language on five different architectures either professionally or as hobby. I haven’t touched it since 2008. Jobs are at a higher level of abstraction these days.

Re: Oracle dumps Terraform for OpenTofu

#168

Post by Gowiem »

The move towards OpenTofu is going to be a slow tide, but it is coming. It's an easy migration, the team behind OpenTofu is showing that they're strong, and the community opinion is most definitely shifting in their favor. We made the jump for one client, started a new client project with tofu, and are starting to migrate another client this week.

Good info on our experience here: https://masterpoint.io/updates/opentofu-early-adopters/

Re: Oracle dumps Terraform for OpenTofu

#169

Post by alexey-salmin »

dijit wrote: post #149
snapcaster wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your comment. Oracle is hypocritical because like every company they take everything they can and give the minimum they have to? which part is hypocritical?

I'm incredulous that you don't understand, but I'll humour you. Let's see; If I giving away a product because I think it's for the betterment of mankind, and definitely not an attempt to rug-pull or anything like that: no, just for developer good will. Then I am offered a free service, and I do not use it for fear that there could potentially be some rugpulling, despite having a reputation for that myself: and the pr…

This still doesn't make any sense to me. In order to use free software you need to make all your software free, is it that?

I have no sympathy for oracle or their products but I fail to see the hypocrisy here. I think oracle is pretty consistent in their position over the years.

Re: Oracle dumps Terraform for OpenTofu

#170

Post by cameronh90 »

8organicbits wrote: post #20

We're seeing an uptick in open source projects getting relicenced to non-open licenses. Some projects are successfully forked and the userbase shifts, other times not. One theory of mine is that we can measure the risk that a project will be relicensed by looking at things like diversity of contributors, trademark ownership, contributor agreements, and license terms. Low risk projects include the Linux kernel (GPL, D…

I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted, this is happening a lot right now, and it’s a real risk when contributing or using an open source project.

I also had the same thought to create some sort of risk metric that could be applied to projects, but I do think your initial metric is lacking some criteria. Foundations like the CNCF and ASF have to be among the lowest risk, and CLAs can be more or less harmful depending on their specific content. I think a big red flag has to be if they’ve taken any VC or PE funding.

However I think the principle of taking this risk more seriously is good and important.

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