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Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

darrenkopp.com

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Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#161

Post by mucle6 »

SJC_Hacker wrote: post #29

Thinking like an engineer, from the companies perspective, its just a filter. While it could be the case that candidate A who passes the coding interview makes a terrible employee, while candidate B who does not pass the interview would make a better one, it doesn't matter. As long as the pool of candidates who pass the coding interview, fares better than the pool who does not, it will be a useful tool until someone…

I think your analogy of pools is spot on.

The goal is to view people as different "grades" like a commodity. They aren't measuring directly for skill, instead they're measuring for the odds you match a some "grade" of software developer.

To your point, if memorizing the first 1k digits of pi correlated with a higher "grade", then companies would use that instead.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#162

Post by swozey »

I refuse to do code tests. I don't mind doing a small 2-3 hour project that I will walk the interviewer through to explain my reasoning for doing things the way that I did, but I cannot code in front of someone. I can't even type correctly on my keyboard if someone is looking over my shoulder.

I've never touched leetcode and I interviewed with Nvidia a few years ago for a position I was an absolute shoe in for, unfortunately they wanted me to do a live leetcode.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#163

Post by fwungy »

sshine wrote: post #18

At this point, I’ve had enough successful positions at hard jobs that I don’t question my competency when I fail a pop quiz. I still don’t know what my favourite Rust crate is. I feel I should have one after being asked more than a couple of times.

"Favorite" just means one you use a lot.

It's like when people ask you what your favorite movie or album is. They're not asking you to literally move to a desert island with only that, it just means one you like that comes to mind easily enough.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#164

Post by beezlebroxxxxxx »

skohan wrote: post #155
benreesman wrote: post #19

The modern FAANG Frankenstein interview is a mess. It was so/so at Google 15-20 years ago, it was so/so when initially FB but most everyone cargo-culted it 10-15 years ago. It’s become “grind leetcode” which is clearly a failure mode. The trouble is it’s a hard problem, and it usually gives - some signal, so it’s sort of better than nothing? I guess? In cases where contract-to-hire make sense for both the company and…

> It’s become “grind leetcode” which is clearly a failure mode. I have no insider knowledge, but I always wondered if those kinds of cultures had a hazing / blind-leading-the-blind aspect to them. I.e. the people who got hired were the ones who jumped through some arbitrary hoops, so they doubled down on those hoops being the right hoops to choose the best candidates.

You see the same effect in the cottage industry built around "cracking the code" and getting hired in these sort of companies. They produce marketing/video content that endlessly repeats "grind leetcode and 3 other simple tips" for getting hired, and then they insist that this is the exact and only reason they got hired (rather than plain luck or some reference), so everyone outside looking in emulates and internalizes this idea as the exact and only way hiring could possibly be effective and "fair". Eventually those practices just become the norm and people are blind to alternatives.

What was once considered a test of "intelligence" and skill in coding (whether a true assumption or not) has just become a test of "how much is a person willing to struggle to earn entry into our hallowed halls". Actual potential ability in the role is secondary to getting the role.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#165

Post by madmountaingoat »

skohan wrote: post #155
benreesman wrote: post #19

The modern FAANG Frankenstein interview is a mess. It was so/so at Google 15-20 years ago, it was so/so when initially FB but most everyone cargo-culted it 10-15 years ago. It’s become “grind leetcode” which is clearly a failure mode. The trouble is it’s a hard problem, and it usually gives - some signal, so it’s sort of better than nothing? I guess? In cases where contract-to-hire make sense for both the company and…

> It’s become “grind leetcode” which is clearly a failure mode. I have no insider knowledge, but I always wondered if those kinds of cultures had a hazing / blind-leading-the-blind aspect to them. I.e. the people who got hired were the ones who jumped through some arbitrary hoops, so they doubled down on those hoops being the right hoops to choose the best candidates.

Hazing is exactly what it is. It's a club and if you want to join the club you're going to have to go through the rituals. I hate participating in the charade but I do it with as much humanity and compassion as I can muster.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#166

Post by tracker1 »

citizen_friend wrote: post #76
michaelt wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps they meant to say "studying for a few weeks to solve fun puzzles, after getting a CS degree from Stanford, moving to a city where a basic apartment costs $1 million, and getting 8-10 years FAANG experience, also like half that $400k is stock not cash" But no licensing!

None of these things are true of me actually. Skill based interview is an equalizer which overcomes status education. And fine divide the salary by 2 and it’s still better than most “licensed” careers

Not to mention those of us who are self-taught and don't do as well in formal learning environments. One can be higher functioning, but not learn the same as others. It's harder to work around at times, and I do have to use various coping mechanisms in practice (same as setting lots of alarms for meetings through the day). I don't always do as well in converting literal leet code pre-screenings online though. I'd rather do a take-home type assignment (actually make a solution for X) or a person to person screening, where I can ask followup questions to better understand what I'm solving for in context.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#167

Post by munificent »

humansareok1 wrote: post #156
max_ wrote: post #131

What exactly is an alternative way to hire good candidates that any of you think is better than coding interviews?

The ways every other field on earth interviews people? Do Surgeons need to perform mock surgeries before they are hired? Do Accountants need to complete a test audit? Do Lawyers perform a mock trial?

> Do Surgeons need to perform mock surgeries before they are hired?

They must have a degree from an accredited institution before they can begin practicing, and part of earning the degree is operating on cadavers, so, yes.

> Do Accountants need to complete a test audit?

In order to be a Certified Public Account in the US, you must pass the Uniform Certified Public Accountant Examination, which has a section on auditing and has "task-based simulations", which are:

"CPA Task-Based Simulations are scenario-based questions on the CPA Exam. They are a large part of what makes the CPA Exam so difficult. Each one will introduce a situation, provide data in the form of charts, memos, and emails, and require you to answer a series of questions."

So, I think yes?

> Do Lawyers perform a mock trial?

In order to be a lawyer in the US, you generally need to pass a state's bar examination. Most of those include "performance tests" which require the testee to simulate part of the job of being a lawyer. I don't know think mock trials are part of that, but writing a legal brief or doing other typical lawyer work is.

My understanding is that going to trial is a small fraction of what most lawyers do and lawyers going in that direction will gain that experience as junior members of a law firm.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#168

Post by tracker1 »

Paul-Craft wrote: post #88
fileeditview wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only in other countries than the US there are also these interviews and you make far from 400k :)

Even in the US, "$400k" is almost certainly an outlier and not the typical case. Ever notice how people making these claims never provide data about actual comp distributions? I've been an engineer for almost 10 years and never had an offer come close to $400k per year.

It probably depends. I know at a very senior level in a lot of companies, you can hit a base salary around half that for Staff/Principal positions and some Architect roles, especially in higher paying areas. The value of stock offerings and other compensation, bonuses etc will vary a lot though. You may grind out 5-10 years to reach that level, then 5 years to fully vest at half that pay to see a $1M stock payout at 5 years bringing the average to $400k. Who knows. Different arrangements work differently.

As an aside, when the market is relatively good, don't be afraid to straight up ask where compensation is on given roles when recruiters reach out, or to ask for more than you think you might get. You're pretty unlikely to get $400k or anywhere near it as a base... but you'd be surprised how reachable say $150k+ is as a base salary for a remote position when you aren't in SF or another major/expensive city.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#169

Post by Paul-Craft »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #143
OnionBlender wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was years ago (pre-covid) but what I remember was a mix of: - "Oh, you're using a laptop" - "Do you really need to use that?" - "Just write it on the whiteboard" - "It would be easier to see on the whiteboard" They also didn't give me a mouse, so using the trackpad was slow. What I hate most about whiteboards is how you can't easily insert lines so you have to leave lots of space. I tend to write code like an on…

Here's my take on it: the interview is testing your ability to "show" that you absorbed the content and process of your 4th year data-structures and algorithms classes. The whiteboard process is all about showing them that you can regurgitate what those courses taught you, likely in the manner that the prof taught you. You're essentially playing "professor" for them in front of a "class", for a short period of time.…

> I think one way to do well in that interview, is to pretend you're the professor and they're a student, and you're working through course material.

If that's what they want, they should give out the questions in advance, and have the candidate prepare a slide deck. No professor conducts class by having students show up and fire random questions at them all semester.

More explicitly, if that's what they want, they should say that.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#170

Post by dilyevsky »

munificent wrote: post #158
dilyevsky wrote: post #139

Classic mistake of overthinking it and failing to realize what interviewer really wants - which is to make sure the candidate can actually write code, like at all. The question itself doesn't really matter as much as it's just a pretext. I actually asked a variation of this question for many years at Google and it was clear within first 5 mins who has been writing code day-to-day and who's been mostly "brining key st…

I love the typo at the end. I have definitely worked with some stakeholders that I would have loved to stuff in a jar of pickling spices and leave on a shelf for several years to ferment.

Im dislexik
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