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I love programming but I hate the programming industry

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Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#161

Post by bumby »

geraldwhen wrote: post #76
bumby wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t you think this would mean government-made code would be of higher quality (in theory, and ignoring when govt code is made by private contractors)? It seems to be the opposite

Not all developers are equal. Government work pays a third or less what private industry pays. You’re never going to get extreme competence from a government software employee.

Never? You don’t think NSA or Israeli 8200 has preeminent software developers? I think your assumption hinges on people being motivated solely by money. That may be largely generalizable, but I suspect there are relatively large exceptions to that rule.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#162

Post by Terr_ »

vegetablepotpie wrote: post #63
fuzzy2 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think “industry” strongly implies “corporate world”. However > The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. Guess I’m the corporate world then! Listen here, dear colleagues: Before attempting any finesse, abstraction, wit or beauty, maybe first try to make it work to spec. Because otherwise it is entirely worthless . If you are reasonably good at making it work, you…

> first try to make it work to spec In my professional experience, the only spec you get is a wishlist, never quantified, always vague. Half the work is figuring out what the customer wants. The only metric that anyone cares about is speed. You need to go fast, but to where? There is no consensus.

> Half the work is figuring out what the customer wants.

And a substantial portion of the rest is telling them why they might be better off asking for something a little different.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#163

Post by fireflash38 »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #67
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #2

It’s not the “programming industry” that OP hates, it’s the “corporate world”. I’ve worked with (and have been) developers who have mismatched expectations on what “the real world” wants out of them. The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. They care about finding developers who will pump out features to the business requirements. Some human beings in that cog (man…

From what they wrote, "small startups" are part of that "corporate world." From my experience, the cultural differences between large corporations, and smaller startups, is night and day. Often, neither one is functional; but they are dysfunctional, in different ways. For myself, I was never happy until I was able to helm my own ship. A lot of folks think that this means "hobby programmer," but I don't actually fit t…

I vote we bring back artisan. Someone who takes pride in their work, to a form of artistry, and just like in a lot of good art: not overly complicated

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#164

Post by zelphirkalt »

fuzzy2 wrote: post #41
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #2

It’s not the “programming industry” that OP hates, it’s the “corporate world”. I’ve worked with (and have been) developers who have mismatched expectations on what “the real world” wants out of them. The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. They care about finding developers who will pump out features to the business requirements. Some human beings in that cog (man…

I think “industry” strongly implies “corporate world”. However > The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. Guess I’m the corporate world then! Listen here, dear colleagues: Before attempting any finesse, abstraction, wit or beauty, maybe first try to make it work to spec. Because otherwise it is entirely worthless . If you are reasonably good at making it work, you…

> If you are reasonably good at making it work, you can then make it right and maybe even fast.

Whuahaaaha ... If only that was so easy. Once you get it working, it will in most cases be torn from your hands and you will not get to touch it again any time soon. So what one does to find even a little bit of joy is to try to get some sense into that code right away, because you don't usually get a second chance.

If I knew, that at a later point in time I will only have to ask and sure enough I will get the opportunity to make things well-made, then I would be much more willing to not spend any additional time into making things well in the first run.

Making things well requires knowledge and craftsmanship, while making things merely as shoddy as possible but according to spec will requite a bunch of interns making a pile of unmaintainable crap. Code only written with the next goal in mind, not looking out for the casualties along the way.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#165

Post by JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B »

jacknews wrote: post #112

The thing that's killed it for me is scrum, even though I'm also a 'scrum master'. Or maybe because of that.

Scrum seems to be the symptom of bad management though. I have a good manager nowadays and we don't use scrum, but it's because the guy is a good manager.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#166

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

fireflash38 wrote: post #163
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what they wrote, "small startups" are part of that "corporate world." From my experience, the cultural differences between large corporations, and smaller startups, is night and day. Often, neither one is functional; but they are dysfunctional, in different ways. For myself, I was never happy until I was able to helm my own ship. A lot of folks think that this means "hobby programmer," but I don't actually fit t…

I vote we bring back artisan. Someone who takes pride in their work, to a form of artistry, and just like in a lot of good art: not overly complicated

Not all artisanal is simple.

Here's a carved rosewood dragon, from Bali: https://imgur.com/a/nwyGSqT

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#167

Post by fuzzy2 »

vegetablepotpie wrote: post #63
fuzzy2 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think “industry” strongly implies “corporate world”. However > The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. Guess I’m the corporate world then! Listen here, dear colleagues: Before attempting any finesse, abstraction, wit or beauty, maybe first try to make it work to spec. Because otherwise it is entirely worthless . If you are reasonably good at making it work, you…

> first try to make it work to spec In my professional experience, the only spec you get is a wishlist, never quantified, always vague. Half the work is figuring out what the customer wants. The only metric that anyone cares about is speed. You need to go fast, but to where? There is no consensus.

I don't see how that's a problem. It's not for everyone, yes, but I like it a lot. Talking directly to the customer allows me to create exactly what the customer needs, without any convoluted process.

If that's not for you, you need at least a requirement engineer between you and the customer. That's also okay.

From my experience, getting things done quick is almost never relevant. Getting things done “cheap” is.

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#168

Post by jampekka »

rjbwork wrote: post #152
jampekka wrote: post #148

A tip for those who still have the chance to change careers and want to do programming instead of whatever it is that done in vast majority of industry: switch to academia. You won't be paid that much, your employment situation will usually be unstable and you'll have to do some boring bureaucracy like beg for funding and play politics, and will likely have/get to teach. But you'll get to do more or less whateber you…

You neglected to tell us what exactly it is you're talking about...

Meant to talk about switching from industry to academia. A rather embarassing omission indeed, sorry!

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#169

Post by jampekka »

ElSucioDan wrote: post #150
jampekka wrote: post #148

A tip for those who still have the chance to change careers and want to do programming instead of whatever it is that done in vast majority of industry: switch to academia. You won't be paid that much, your employment situation will usually be unstable and you'll have to do some boring bureaucracy like beg for funding and play politics, and will likely have/get to teach. But you'll get to do more or less whateber you…

Switch into what exactly?

To academia. Was quite a crucial thing to miss in my comment, thanks for pointing out!

Re: I love programming but I hate the programming industry

#170

Post by fuzzy2 »

zelphirkalt wrote: post #164
fuzzy2 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think “industry” strongly implies “corporate world”. However > The corporate world doesn’t give a shit about finesse, abstractions, witty or beautiful code. Guess I’m the corporate world then! Listen here, dear colleagues: Before attempting any finesse, abstraction, wit or beauty, maybe first try to make it work to spec. Because otherwise it is entirely worthless . If you are reasonably good at making it work, you…

> If you are reasonably good at making it work, you can then make it right and maybe even fast. Whuahaaaha ... If only that was so easy. Once you get it working, it will in most cases be torn from your hands and you will not get to touch it again any time soon. So what one does to find even a little bit of joy is to try to get some sense into that code right away, because you don't usually get a second chance. If I k…

I may not have communicated this well enough. I wasn't referring to a multi-step process where I hand over the solution in between. I was referring to getting good at making in work, right and fast in one step (at least as far as the customer is concerned).

Many try do it all at once and then end up with… nothing.

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