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Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

reuters.com

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Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some argue that this will effectively kill R&D, because the second you've created something - others would start reverse engineering, Reverse engineering is not needed - it's time-consuming, expensive and error-prone. The large incumbents would simply poach away key people and have that R&D in a month! As much as some people hate to admit it, intellectual property laws have their place. Are they perfect? Not in my…

> The large incumbents would simply poach away key people and have that R&D in a month! This reads to me like those key people have no incentive to stay after applying their knowledge to the org.

> This reads to me like those key people have no incentive to stay after applying their knowledge to the org.

What incentive could you possible offer them? If a FAANG wants your 20-man company's trade secrets, all they have to do is offer a key person $500k/year salary.

If a FAANG wants your 20-man company's patent, they are going to pay you for it.

And, as someone who's actually been in court more than a few times, no, they won't kill you via legal bills in a long protracted court case (say, by violating the IP) to get the IP - that happens so rarely you may as well hope for significant winnings at a casino.

And even if they pursue a protracted legal battle hoping to kill the company to acquire the IP, then they have to bid on the open market for it, against other FAANGs!

And even if they do kill the company, then they still have to deal with whoever gets the IP (which is why that strategy is almost never viable), because that IP doesn't become public domain simply because the company died, it will go to someone, somewhere.

Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#162
Amazon should just pay a bunch of people to write down a working implementation of the patent using a pencil and paper. It'd be a LOT of paper but it would meet the, "if it can be done with a pen and paper" criteria outlined in CLS Bank. It wouldn't even be complicated or difficult... Just tedious.

Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost like capitalism stifles innovation. Paradoxically it's one of the most common arguments people use in favor of the system: it pushes innovation! It actually pushes innovation towards profits, not pure innovation. When real innovation happens it's mostly by coincidence on the small intersection of the Venn diagram. Edit: It's interesting that the patent system was created, in theory, to allow people to pro…

> It's almost like capitalism stifles innovation. It's not. It's nowhere close. "Capitalism" (which is a weasel word to begin with), has produced far more innovation than any other economic system. Even aside from the overwhelming historical evidence soundly disproving your point, your argument is designed to deceive: > It actually pushes innovation towards profits, not pure innovation. Strawman argument - very few p…

I hesitate to reply to people that hide behind throwaway accounts, but sure, I'll bite.

>Even aside from the overwhelming historical evidence soundly disproving your point

That has basically nothing to compare against it. The very few attempts that we had in modern times were ultimately sabotaged by capitalism. Maybe those attempts would not succeed even without the sabotage but regardless, of course it's better than feudalism and its predecessors. The key question for me is: is that the best we can do?

Capitalism did sprout innovation, but that does not mean it's the best way to do so. Ignoring the inherent flaws around the profit motive doesn't help anyone.

>Strawman argument

I don't think so, honestly. The reality is that a lot of research is done with the question of "how can we make money solving this problem?", rather than "how can we solve this problem?". You can't deny that.

Maybe categorizing that as pure/non-pure innovation is not a good way to put it, but the incentives of research do change with profit seeking. It's undeniable.

>corrupt regulators that anti-capitalists would happily put into greater positions of power and give more power to meaningfully decrease the quality of human life.

Regulators that are corrupted in search of capital. It's a circular system.

Many do believe that democratically elect people should have more power than private institutions with zero transparency or checks. Not sure exactly how that "decreases the quality of human life". Where did that come from?

Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Patents are in principle supposed to be non-obvious, and detailed enough that an expert in the domain can reproduce the invention from the description. I can assure you that in practice they are neither. There are merely a lot of people in the legal profession whose jobs depend on ignoring that fact.

> I can assure you that in practice they are neither. Having written some patents that has not been my experience. For example, this is one of the patents in the lawsuit: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/67/67/7c/1299b0c... This patent includes network diagrams, actual C data structure, technical terminology galore, etc, etc. It's got a ton more implementation details versus, for example, a scientific publ…

I didn't read this patent before making a sister comment, but looking through it, this one is actually really clear on exactly what is happening (which makes sense with everyone here saying "it's just DNS for data" - everything is obvious in hindsight) and relatively low on patent jargon.

A lot of patents give you a bunch of alternative implementations and component definitions, which can muddy the waters a bit. On the other hand, the figures can help you a lot.

Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#165
post #41
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> antithetical to how humans have progressed socially and technologically for millenia I'd argue the opposite. It has been one of the primary driving forces behind human progress for the past 300-400 years. The world today would be a much bleaker and more miserable place if IP rights never became a thing. Imagine writing or any type of content creation without copyright. Even after the printing press was invented it…

Books are fancy, but let's not mix up progress with being able to live off writing them. We see innovation in open source every day from small startups, from various sized communities, and from hobbyists. That said, the startup selling IP model works somewhat in the pharma sector, but that's patents, and you mentioned books, where the whole IP regulation game got abso-fucking-lutely captured by the industry (with the…

> Books are fancy, but let's not mix up progress with being able to live off writing them.

Ok you can substitute this with any type of R&D done by individual or small to large companies.

> We see innovation in open source every day from small startups, from various sized communities, and from hobbyists.

Open source is only really successful in areas where it's a cost centre. Generally, companies mainly invest it into when using OS allows them to reduce their costs and they can focus on other ways of making money/differentiating their products. e.g. there would've been a lot less innovation in OS if Google/Meta/etc. didn't make billions from ads and other services.

> and you mentioned books,

Well yeah.. or any creative content.

> abso-fucking-lutely captured by the industry (with their ridiculous 100+ years of copyright

Yes, I also think that's excessive. To be fair though I don't really understand why do people care that much about being able to use Mickey Mouse in their content. In any case it's obviously preferable to not having any IP protection...

Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grant money is not profit.

Not directly, but if it can save a university from having to use their endowment or other funds for something they would probably already do anyway, is there fundamentally a difference?

Nobody gets access to the money privately. The grant is paid out in salaries for work instead of capital gains. There's no capital investment for the grant.

Of course grants are an economic incentive to do something. But not all economic incentives are profit.

Edit: To be clear, universities as such don't generally apply for research grants. Researchers in universities do, and for getting a grant they get the luxury of working for a salary for a few years, or getting somebody else to be paid for their work. Universities do take a cut (overheads) from the grants to nominally pay for infra and admin etc, but in reality a lot of it is spent on all kinds of non-related things like teaching and alumni dinners and chauffeurs for the provost.

Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a wasteful aberration that strangles innovation with red tape This is a strong claim, without any evidence to support it. In fact, a look at the historical record, as others have pointed out, very much shows an extremely strong correlation between intellectual property rights and technological development. Sure, this is merely correlation, but that's certainly better than a strong claim without any evidence. I…

The book "Against Intellectual Monopoly" by Michele Boldrin and David K. Levine has a decent overview of the arguments supporting this claim. https://annas-archive.org/search?q=against+intellectual+mono...

Thanks for the reference. I downloaded the book, and looked up the parts that talked about newspapers, in particular. I found the arguments to generally be counter to what the industry has figured out, in terms of actual survival.

From the late 90s to the early 2010s the news industry was very pro-active about making their work freely available to everyone. This made enforcing copyright on news articles not really a thing. Coinciding with this the news industry rapidly shrunk, and is now a shell of what it used to be.

Interestingly, the trend of "free" reporting is now strongly reversing. Many publications now put most of their work behind a paywall, no longer freely giving away the material they produce.

From the book:

"The distribution of news on the Internet makes an interesting contrast to the distribution of music. While the RIAA has used every imaginable legal (and in some cases illegal) strategy to keep music off the Internet, the news reporting industry has embraced the Internet. Most major news agencies have a Web site where news stories may be viewed for, at most, the cost of a free registration. Far from discouraging the copying of news stories, most sites invite you to "e-mail a copy of this story to a friend." In fact, news is available so freely over the Internet that it is possible to create an entire newspaper simply by linking to stories written by other people. An example of such a "newspaper" is the site run by Matt Drudge, which consists almost entirely of links to stories on other sites. Yet the incentive to gather the news has not disappeared. According to intellectual monopolists' preaching, this should be impossible: to report from the Sudan requires the huge cost of going there in person, but copying that same report is as cheap as it can possibly get. So, why are highly paid journalists traveling to the Sudan to get the news?"

What the authors of this book don't state is that, the ramifications of this shift to "freely shared" news has meant that far fewer journalists are out there actually reporting. (The layoffs have been massive.) They go on to say, just a few sentences later that "the news industry has been thriving, profitable."

Obviously, this is just not true. The news industry is struggling. The layoffs have been massive. This type of pain in the industry was happening in 2008, when the book was published, and continues still.

With the authors missing such glaring (and important) facts, it's hard to take their arguments seriously.

Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#168
post #35

The concept of intellectual property is antithetical to how humans have progressed socially and technologically for millenia. It's a wasteful aberration that strangles innovation with red tape and hands control of our culture over to those with the financial mean to claim to own it. The day we wrest back that control will be a good day.

AWS made 90.8 billion in 2023. I think a $525 million charge for using a smaller company's intellectual property reflects exactly what you're saying.

If IP was more important then the lawsuit probably would've gathered more than half a percent of Amazon's revenue for something that was '"essential" to the ability of Amazon's cloud-computing arm to "store and retrieve massive amounts of data."'

Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#169
post #35

The concept of intellectual property is antithetical to how humans have progressed socially and technologically for millenia. It's a wasteful aberration that strangles innovation with red tape and hands control of our culture over to those with the financial mean to claim to own it. The day we wrest back that control will be a good day.

AWS made 90.8 billion in 2023. I think a $525 million charge for using a smaller company's intellectual property reflects exactly what you're saying. If IP was more important then the lawsuit probably would've gathered more than half a percent of Amazon's revenue for something that was '"essential" to the ability of Amazon's cloud-computing arm to "store and retrieve massive amounts of data."'

AWS didn't steal the technology. They re-invented it in a way that was similar to a patented technology. Imo this is a failure of the patent system. AWS should not have to pay anything in an ideal system.

Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#170
post #35

The concept of intellectual property is antithetical to how humans have progressed socially and technologically for millenia. It's a wasteful aberration that strangles innovation with red tape and hands control of our culture over to those with the financial mean to claim to own it. The day we wrest back that control will be a good day.

hardly. patents are also optional - if you wanna give away all your IP to the world, no one is stopping you.
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