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Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

learncodethehardway.org

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Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#161

Post by readme »

zedshaw wrote: post #85
B-Con wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a terrible post. He wildly exaggerates Jeff's statements and completely misses the point of it, which was not in any way "no one should learn to program", but rather "don't learn specialized skill sets you don't need". Jeff's point focused on whether programming was the best path to solving a problem for most people, and whether they would actually gain anything from it. His main argument was that programming…

The title says "Please don't learn to code". Holy crap, how can so many smart people be so incredibly bad at reading comprehension.

Apparently you. Have you thought about reading the post, rather than just the title? The same exact statement could be applied to the title of your post "Please don't become anything, especially not a programmer"

Nice article by the way, and thanks for your work.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#162

Post by nkassis »

zedshaw wrote: post #90
nkassis wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See this is the crux of what I thought this movement was about. Logical and Algorithmic thinking is what people should be getting from learning to code. This is a fundamental thing like critical thinking which schools have a really hard time making kids learn. Plus I have to agree with you that today I wouldn't recommend my path to others trying to learn to program. It wouldn't make any sense.

I think you're applying boolean logic where there is none. I wouldn't say that people should always totally be logical. That's stupid because logic ignores context which is very relevant in the real world. I would say that one of the skills it teaches is the ability to think more logically. I also actually don't think that's the best skill it teaches. I think it gives people a bunch of other skills, and that "logic"…

"I wouldn't say that people should always totally be logical."

Oh no, I didn't mean to imply that. What I meant is I believe it's a skill everyone should have, using it or not is a situation based thing.

I believe learning to program is a good vehicle to learn that skill in school.

"I would say that one of the skills it teaches is the ability to think more logically. I also actually don't think that's the best skill it teaches. I think it gives people a bunch of other skills, and that "logic" is kind of secondary to the others."

I agree, it's definitively not the only thing it teaches. Same as Math not just being about learning to count, add, multiply... Yet you should know how to do those things.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#163

Post by icebraining »

alecbenzer wrote: post #18

The part at the end was just fantastic, and really sound advice for pretty much anyone. But, I think people are sort of misunderstanding Jeff's post. I didn't get the impression that he was trying to dissuade kids from learning how to code in some kind of effort to keep his uniqueness as a programmer. I think the point was just that this whole _everybody_ should learn how to code thing is a little odd. If you want to…

I'm sure learning a second language is fun, but I get annoyed when people try and make it seem like it's absolutely vital to do so.

I'm guessing you're a native English speaker? Because I can tell you that in many parts of the world, learning a second language is essential if you want a decent job and access to the vast amounts of knowledge, culture and people that the Internet provides.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#164

Post by nkassis »

Produce wrote: post #87
nkassis wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See this is the crux of what I thought this movement was about. Logical and Algorithmic thinking is what people should be getting from learning to code. This is a fundamental thing like critical thinking which schools have a really hard time making kids learn. Plus I have to agree with you that today I wouldn't recommend my path to others trying to learn to program. It wouldn't make any sense.

I have to disagree with the sentiment that programming has anything to do with logical thinking. You can write awesome programs on feeling alone. For example, when I'm debugging, I don't think, I simply let my mind explore the catacombs and the solution bubbles up from my subconscious. The benefit which logic brings to the table is being able to communicate your ideas clearly. Critical thinking is useful but it's not…

I definitively don't think it displaces creativity. I think it actually improves it in a sense. Hones creativity and makes it sharper. And as you said it makes it easier to communicate ideas more clearly. Definitively something important for programming.

I don't see any of these things being on their own the golden hammer. I like to view these skills (creativity, critical thinking, logical thinking...) as empowering each other. Programming is how I believe I got a lot of those things. Maybe I'm wrong and it's not the best way to go to get these for others.

" I simply let my mind explore the catacombs and the solution bubbles up from my subconscious."

I think the subconscious can be trained and get better.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#165

Post by Smudge »

laughinghan wrote: post #124
zedshaw wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did read it, and he's wrong. That's why I wrote mine.

You did read it, and he's wrong, and that's why you wrote an article that did not respond to his (supposedly wrong) arguments at all, and instead presented an ad hominem attack saying he "[gets] off on making beginners feel like they're worthless for attempting something"?

Not all insults are ad hominem. For this to be ad hominem, he would have to be saying that the reason Attwood was wrong was because he "gets off on making beginners feel like they're worthless..."

Here's a quick illustration:

Ad Hominem: Jeff Attwood gets off on being an ass. Therefore he is wrong.

Not Ad Hominem: Jeff Attwood gets off on being an ass. Incidentally, he is also wrong.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#166

Post by protomyth »

Tichy wrote: post #160

Like the article. However, I am undecided if I will urge my son to get into coding. I will teach him, but does it really make for a great career? The one good thing about it seems to be that you can create some stuff with very little resources (not everything the world needs, though -yet, anyway). And yet I wonder if other professions are not more likely to lead to happiness. The often cited people interactions could…

When I was younger my Dad taught me how to fix the car. It was a skill that I never used professionally, but has served me quite well in college and beyond.

Programming isn't an either or proposition. It is one of the many skills someone can learn throughout their life. I will teach my nephew how to code, just because it is cool. If it provides another window onto the world, cool. If not, it will be fun to show him how photocells and programming work.

My biggest disagreement is the portrayal of plumbers in the original article. I learned how to wire a basement and build a photo lab in high school (want to take photography? well, see we need a place to develop film....) Every skill, well taught, teaches you a little more about the world. Don't be a snob about it.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#167

Post by chipsy »

keithpeter wrote: post #91

Disclaimer: I was so impressed with Learn Python the Hard Way that I bought the hardback in the hope that Shaw gets a beer out of it. I've made it to Ch 11 and will finish the course when I get my students through their maths exams. PS: Zed, magstep3 in TeX, please , I need glasses as it is. Is it possible that there are degrees of code writing? I publish my humble Web site using some bash scripts I hacked up to gene…

Professional programming's only been around for 2-3 generations. I don't think there's any hard evidence for the skills being limited to a particular domain - rather the opposite, we keep discovering new things to apply code to.

It used to be that programming was seen just as "large scale number crunching" and even top people in the computer industry didn't see greater application(e.g. the "only 5 computers in the world" quote often attributed to Tom Watson). We've progressed quite a ways from that point, and nowadays I think we've reached an era where no programmer can be expected to know all the programming knowledge that exists. There are too many different domains and specialties.

And that, in turn, means that as a society we need yet more programmers to cover all possibilities and make more discoveries. I think "skill" is very tangential to the discussion, because one of the domains that has ample room to progress is language design and engineering techniques.

When people online toss around phrases like "best practice" and "professional-grade" you can take it with a grain of salt - most code barely works, we don't actually know how to do it right, and we spend most of our time on concerns that are bikeshedding, not order-of-magnitude productivity enhancers. We're still catching up with some ideas from the 70s about how to build software.

Instead just be "humble yet courageous." If you don't know if it's right, marshal all your available defenses - source control, backups, comments, references, IRC channels etc. - and then go try it. It's an experiment, and it probably won't take long to figure out if it has problems.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#168

Post by protomyth »

parfe wrote: post #92
B-Con wrote: post #70

He really missed Jeff's point. This was a terrible piece. > Currently, Jeff Attwood has a piece where he tells you to not learn to code. I wonder if he's going to tell his kids they shouldn't learn to code when they want to become just like Daddy? Probably not. He'll gleefully run over and show them how to code and tell them it's so much fun and that they should all do it and it's the best thing ever! But, of course,…

Perhaps Jeff should have chosen a better title. Perhaps Jeff should have chosen a better example than of a man late in his career path holding a highly specialized job an ultra-majority of people will never hold. I'm sure Bloomberg would have loved to know how to code back in his trading days. Of course Jeff can't see a reason a financial trader would want to trade.

Bloomberg is not exactly a babe in the woods where technology is concerned. http://ecommerce.hostip.info/pages/111/Bloomberg-L-P-EARLY-H...

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#169

Post by gregors »

dbecker wrote: post #99
zedshaw wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The title says "Please don't learn to code". Holy crap, how can so many smart people be so incredibly bad at reading comprehension.

The title was meant as an attention grabber, but the text does not suggest that NO ONE should learn to code. The text only disputes that EVERYONE should learn to code.

back up 200 years and replace coding with reading...

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#170

Post by neckbeard »

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #151
laughinghan wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it does. Jeff's article then proceeds to present a very reasonable argument to consider for why you might not want to code, specifically, there are many useful skills in the world and maybe there's one that would serve you better than coding. Your article completely ignores Jeff's article and presents what amounts to an ad hominem attack on Jeff, claiming he's trying to make beginners feel like losers. Do you ho…

>Jeff's article then proceeds to present a very reasonable argument to consider for why you might not want to code, specifically, there are many useful skills in the world and maybe there's one that would serve you better than coding. Programming is a super-power, even if you only know a little bit. Knowing how to program gives you abilities to create unequaled in the history of the world. I think that the more peopl…

I endorse the subheading on the linked article, if not the entire thing.
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