Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice • Hacker News Board

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#161

Post by plasticchris » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 5:24 PM UTC

LoganDark wrote: post #142

someplaceguy wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder if eventually once this is more thoroughly researched there could be a way to induce constant cleaning instead of having to do it while unconscious at night? Hopefully without having to induce those brainwaves, otherwise you might be able to do it during the day but you wouldn't exactly be conscious. But there's also the question of whether those brainwaves are doing more than just cleaning the brain. I th…

> Hopefully without having to induce those brainwaves, otherwise you might be able to do it during the day but you wouldn't exactly be conscious. But there's also the question of whether those brainwaves are doing more than just cleaning the brain. ...Lucid daydreaming button, anyone? Maybe not lucid if it's the exact same as normal sleep, but I'm sure that if such a thing more exist, you'd be able to adjust exactly…

But your brain is disconnected from your body during dreams, to keep you from flailing around. Sometimes you even wake up before the block is lifted and can’t move. So controlling such a device would be difficult.

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#162

Post by LoganDark » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 5:30 PM UTC

plasticchris wrote: post #161

LoganDark wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hopefully without having to induce those brainwaves, otherwise you might be able to do it during the day but you wouldn't exactly be conscious. But there's also the question of whether those brainwaves are doing more than just cleaning the brain. ...Lucid daydreaming button, anyone? Maybe not lucid if it's the exact same as normal sleep, but I'm sure that if such a thing more exist, you'd be able to adjust exactly…

But your brain is disconnected from your body during dreams, to keep you from flailing around. Sometimes you even wake up before the block is lifted and can’t move. So controlling such a device would be difficult.

You're describing sleep paralysis, right? It's not so much a disconnection as it is an inhibition. Attempts to move most of your muscles are blocked, but external stimuli still get in. You know, once upon a time someone started the washer while I was presumably in REM, and I started to hear something in my dream. When I woke up, it only took me a couple minutes to realize that what I had been hearing in the dream was some greatly slowed-down version of the washer that had just been started, since I guess my dream time was travelling faster than real time. I think the only reason it didn't wake me up is because I'm used to sleeping through the sound of the washer running and may even normally filter it out. That's just the first time that someone managed to turn it on in the middle of my actual dreaming phase.

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#163

Post by someplaceguy » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 5:32 PM UTC

plasticchris wrote: post #161

LoganDark wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hopefully without having to induce those brainwaves, otherwise you might be able to do it during the day but you wouldn't exactly be conscious. But there's also the question of whether those brainwaves are doing more than just cleaning the brain. ...Lucid daydreaming button, anyone? Maybe not lucid if it's the exact same as normal sleep, but I'm sure that if such a thing more exist, you'd be able to adjust exactly…

But your brain is disconnected from your body during dreams, to keep you from flailing around. Sometimes you even wake up before the block is lifted and can’t move. So controlling such a device would be difficult.

> But your brain is disconnected from your body during dreams, to keep you from flailing around

Tell that to sleepwalkers!

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#164

Post by tonis2 » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 5:34 PM UTC

magicalhippo wrote: post #155

robg wrote: post #87

If you have any doubts about sleep quantity and quality, worth reading about the glymphatic nervous system, which is so newly discovered likely you didn’t learn about it in school. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4636982/ In short it explains, mechanistically, why poor sleep affects daily cognition, mental health, and age-related declines. Robust scientific theories explain more of the evidence. The glym…

It makes me sad as my SO struggles a lot with sleep. It's been years since she's had a good nights sleep. Sadly her issues are mostly psychologically rooted due to past trauma, while all the treatments seem to be geared towards "simple" physical issues. She's tried contacting various sleep clinics here and they've all said they can't help. She struggles a lot with falling asleep, she's exceptionally sensitive to soun…

Bad gut health screwed up my sleep, after working on it it got better. But if im not careful with what I eat, my sleep quality is screwed again

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#165

Post by LoganDark » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 5:37 PM UTC

someplaceguy wrote: post #163

plasticchris wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But your brain is disconnected from your body during dreams, to keep you from flailing around. Sometimes you even wake up before the block is lifted and can’t move. So controlling such a device would be difficult.

> But your brain is disconnected from your body during dreams, to keep you from flailing around Tell that to sleepwalkers!

I believe there are two "obvious" theories on how sleepwalking may occur:

- Sleep paralysis doesn't properly activate, and someone accidentally transfers the motion of walking into real life. proprioception may pass through to the dream, they might perceive a dream environment that allows them to navigate the real one. (i.e. righting themself from bed, staying upright while walking)

- They aren't fully asleep, but they aren't awake/aware either. I've had my fair share of people telling me that I said or did things after waking up and before immediately going back to sleep, and those are things I don't remember doing at all, probably because they weren't properly recorded in memory because my brain was not fully awake. (Some of these cases could have been DID though.)

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#166

Post by magicalhippo » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 5:49 PM UTC

thatcat wrote: post #158

magicalhippo wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me sad as my SO struggles a lot with sleep. It's been years since she's had a good nights sleep. Sadly her issues are mostly psychologically rooted due to past trauma, while all the treatments seem to be geared towards "simple" physical issues. She's tried contacting various sleep clinics here and they've all said they can't help. She struggles a lot with falling asleep, she's exceptionally sensitive to soun…

Has she tried cannabis? It prevents dream memory formation and can help with nightmares

Not yet. It's not legal here yet, though recently it's softening up.

But we've talked about it, though mostly to reduce her anxiety. If it can help with nightmares as well, then would indeed be quite interesting.

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#167

Post by magicalhippo » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 5:53 PM UTC

tonis2 wrote: post #164

magicalhippo wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me sad as my SO struggles a lot with sleep. It's been years since she's had a good nights sleep. Sadly her issues are mostly psychologically rooted due to past trauma, while all the treatments seem to be geared towards "simple" physical issues. She's tried contacting various sleep clinics here and they've all said they can't help. She struggles a lot with falling asleep, she's exceptionally sensitive to soun…

Bad gut health screwed up my sleep, after working on it it got better. But if im not careful with what I eat, my sleep quality is screwed again

While I don't doubt that for a second, she's had her issues before when she didn't care too much about what she ate, compared to last few years where she's been actively eating healthy.

There's certainly a correlation for my self though.

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#168

Post by magicalhippo » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 6:04 PM UTC

JoshGG wrote: post #157

magicalhippo wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me sad as my SO struggles a lot with sleep. It's been years since she's had a good nights sleep. Sadly her issues are mostly psychologically rooted due to past trauma, while all the treatments seem to be geared towards "simple" physical issues. She's tried contacting various sleep clinics here and they've all said they can't help. She struggles a lot with falling asleep, she's exceptionally sensitive to soun…

Sounds so hard. I’ve experienced that a moderate or intense exercise regimen can help a lot with sleep. If she hasn’t tried therapies directed at trauma and recovery that may also be helpful.

It's brutal.

She did start exercising some years ago, and it did improve. But then real-life issues triggers her anxiety and it's back to square one.

She's tried therapy for a long time with little result. She's very smart, but most likely has ADHD, so for example mindfulness and similar doesn't seem to work well (either "boring" so she loses focus, or too "obvious" without actionable content).

Though we recently found a therapist which she really resonated with. It's slow work but I think it's been helping.

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#169

Post by rowanG077 » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 6:06 PM UTC

robg wrote: post #147

moffkalast wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if eventually once this is more thoroughly researched there could be a way to induce constant cleaning instead of having to do it while unconscious at night? Or at least reduce the hours required. If we could solve this we could just stay awake perpetually and instantly gain a 30% longer lifespan as it were.

More efficient sleep is possible with ultrasound. But keep in mind that the glymphatic system seems to expand as other systems contract. The waves are tied to brain activity slowing down, can’t have one without the other. That said, could intersperse active times of the day with naps. But naps alone don’t seem sufficient as good sleep.

To what degree is it more efficient? For example could you halve your sleep requirement? That would already be huge.

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#170

Post by canadiantim » Sat, Mar 16, 2024, 6:08 PM UTC

magicalhippo wrote: post #155

robg wrote: post #87

If you have any doubts about sleep quantity and quality, worth reading about the glymphatic nervous system, which is so newly discovered likely you didn’t learn about it in school. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4636982/ In short it explains, mechanistically, why poor sleep affects daily cognition, mental health, and age-related declines. Robust scientific theories explain more of the evidence. The glym…

It makes me sad as my SO struggles a lot with sleep. It's been years since she's had a good nights sleep. Sadly her issues are mostly psychologically rooted due to past trauma, while all the treatments seem to be geared towards "simple" physical issues. She's tried contacting various sleep clinics here and they've all said they can't help. She struggles a lot with falling asleep, she's exceptionally sensitive to soun…

She should try ketamine. Sounds like it’s exactly what you say, past trauma, that’s holding her back from a good nights sleep. Ketamine has done wonders for someone I love and I would wholeheartedly recommend it. The person in my life who benefited greatly from it only needed one weekend (2 relatively low to medium dose sessions of ketamine) and she was cured of her ptsd.

Also strongly recommend weighted blankets, especially for someone like your SO.

All the best eh