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Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

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Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#161

Post by throwawa14223 »

drcongo wrote: post #159
throwawa14223 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're going to need to explain how you've managed to bring The Foreigns into this, you've just glued together two unrelated statements. You say that the US population isn't growing through birthrates, and then talk about population decrease and immigration as though that's related. As far as I can tell, population growth in the USA is from people moving here from other places. Not as a result of growth from people…

> Assuming we live in a world where AI eats jobs, which as far as I can tell is what we are talking about No, this is a thread about billionaires lobbying against UBI. You brought AI into it so you could have a go about the foreigners. > How is that relevant? It's relevant because you're so anti-immigration that surely you must be native to the land you live on, otherwise you're just another racist pulling the ladder…

> You brought AI into it so you could have a go about the foreigners.

I think you'll find I was answering danielbln about AI and a lack of jobs.

> It's relevant because you're so anti-immigration that surely you must be native to the land you live on, otherwise you're just another racist pulling the ladder up behind you.

Why are you wasting your time with me when you could be winning a James Randi Educational Foundation million dollar prize for showing off your mind reading? Since you're wrong about my internal state I have no use responding to you.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#162

Post by tivert »

Gormo wrote: post #144
tivert wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nevertheless, they coordinate: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/10-ways...

An that's already illegal, so there's already a basis for legal action against SuperPACs that engage directly as part of candidates campaigns. So what else are you proposing?

> An that's already illegal so there's already a basis for legal action

Is it? It looks to me like they're exploiting loopholes, which is legal.

The article's from 2015, and I understand that stuff is still going on (e.g. Ron DeSantis's campaign and SuperPAC coordinating through open letters discussing strategy).

> against SuperPACs that engage directly as part of candidates campaigns.

Who said anything about "directly"? I've noticed you doing that a lot in this thread: missing the meaning, twisting it, then quibbling with your reinterpretation.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#163

Post by loudmax »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #9
bhouston wrote: post #3

Unrestricted campaign donations is a huge issue in US politics. It allows for the repeated undermining of democracy in favour of rich people's interests. It is anti-democratic to the core. And I do not mean rich people who are in the upper 10% of income, it favours the ultra rich for whom a $100,000 political donation is pocket change.

As a European I already think there is not much democracy left in the USA. At a federal level it's moving towards an autocracy at a rapid pace, and a large part of the electorate seems keen to cheer it on. At a local level money, gerrymandering and propaganda make it impossible to elect politicians who give a fair representation of people's interests. And with a two party system, it's more than likely that both of th…

As an American, I don't disagree about the threat to democracy in the United States, but I caution against excessive cynicism. Autocrats and would-be autocrats rely on the populace losing interest in politics and tuning out entirely.

We need to realistically acknowledge the problems and work toward solutions. Not throw up our hands and give into injustice. The solution to democratic revival is citizen engagement, not despair and fatalism.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#164

Post by throwawa14223 »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #158
throwawa14223 wrote: post #46

[flagged]

Don't feed the troll, folks, This is a junk comment, probably by a bot.

I think my comment above was made in haste because UBI seems dire to me. But, barring some sort of Cartesian evil demon tricking me I am not a bot.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#165

Post by aaomidi »

lenerdenator wrote: post #110
dagw wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'bottom' spend a much large proportion of the income on 'stuff' that counts towards inflation than the the 'top'. If you take money out of rich peoples art and private jet budget and add it to poor peoples food and heating budget, then that can drive up inflation since food and heating make up a bigger part of the inflation calculation than art and private jets.

Because we've allocated more resources towards the production of art and private jets than towards essentials production.

And allocation follows where money is, as well.

So yeah, allocation will lag a bit behind where the money is.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#166

Post by NickC25 »

pton_xd wrote: post #22
spamizbad wrote: post #8

UBI's critics expected these programs to have terrible outcomes, where recipients would spend their money on trivialities (or worse: drugs). Instead, what we find is that UBI recipients either spend it on essentials, stuff for their kids children or paying down debt.

The US handed out $1.8 trillion to individuals and families and $1.7 trillion to businesses during COVID. And then a few years later began experiencing the highest inflation rate in 40 years. And that wasn't even enough money for anyone to live on. I think this needs to be solved before UBI has any chance of working.

Don't forget that that 1.7 trillion was largely forgiven, especially in the case of some of the largest recipients. The president at the time made sure that there was absolutely zero oversight of the corporations that got money, and of course that's going to cause problems.

Yes, printing money wildly leads to inflation. Nobody is arguing that it doesn't. Giving the poorest members of society means the velocity of that money (or the M1 number) doesn't actually cause rampant inflation, as it stays in circulation because it is used quickly.

Giving 1.7 trillion largely to corporations who don't NEED it causes inflation. A corporation who sits on that cash (and then doesn't actually have to pay taxes on that cash, nor actually distribute it to employees) does cause inflation, because that's a whole lot of money just sitting around instead of flowing through an economy.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#167

Post by chabes »

rayiner wrote: post #149
chabes wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Without gerrymandering Emphasis on this part

Yes, that’s why OP cited the Congressional popular vote. What’s happening is that both parties gerrymander, so it largely cancels out. For example in Maryland, democrats won 65% of the 2022 Congressional popular vote, but hold 87.5% of the House seats. The 450,000 or so excess Republican votes—votes for republicans which didn’t contribute to a Republican house seat—cancels out some excess Democratic votes in Montana…

Indeed, but there are other factors at play, in regards to the influence of gerrymandering on voting in general

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#168

Post by throwawa14223 »

rightbyte wrote: post #93
throwawa14223 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're living through proof you cannot right now.

Sure. My main point is that the economic system is so perverted, that it is silly to refute UBI on common sense grounds. I don't think I am an advocate.

That's a fair point, if we're not going to fix things why not?

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#169

Post by lenerdenator »

laverya wrote: post #137
lenerdenator wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, we already have that.

One of many reasons that FDR was the worst president in US history.

I'm talking about the ability of people to concentrate soft power with capital. At least with federal programs there's _some_ ability for the average person to influence how the program is run, even if it's abstracted through Congress and elections.

The alternative is neo-feudalism.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#170

Post by spiderfarmer »

throwawa14223 wrote: post #157
spiderfarmer wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I say the policies that are being implemented by your side violates my right to freedom from religion, how do you react?

I'm very sympathetic to that I think we need far more ways for people to opt out based on freedom of religion/conscience to be able to maximize personal liberty. I don't like being forced by the government but I don't like others being forced either.

So does abortion fall under my personal liberty? Is reading a book with some sexual content permitted for a child?
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