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Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

deprocrastination.co

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Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#161

Post by haswell »

StefanBatory wrote: post #106
equalsione wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growing up, my parents didn't have encouragement or patience in their emotional toolkit. You were expected to do everything perfectly - homework, writing a letter, any kind of planning, even sweeping the floor or washing dishes - and if you struggled in any way you were berated at length. Many decades later even mundane things can be a battle - ringing a doctor to ask for an appointment, or a provider to query a bill…

That is something I share too, I had similar experience. Faced with hard task, I ended up not even trying - penalty for failure was the same as one for not doing something.

The book "Learned Optimism" was a life changing read for me coming from this kind of background. It includes exercises that start to rewire your brain. Highly recommended.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#162

Post by adadadadadad »

Modified3019 wrote: post #99
darkwater wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a medical expert or anything but I guess there is a good chunk of population who just procrastinates or can struggle with focus without having ADHD? Or is there always a 1:1 relationship?

ADHD is definitely a major cause, but another big one which is much more complex to talk about is “avoidant” type behaviors that are a result of trauma/neglect/abuse early in life. There is correlation that occurs among diagnoses of ADHD, Autism, CPTSD, and other “mental issues”, such that by the time one becomes noticeable as having pathological effect, then it’s likely to be able to identify at least a few more iss…

Avoidant behaviors can also just be a result of getting older. Everyday is the youngest you will ever be and gradually doors close off to you which can induce panic and anxiety.

Starting a task towards a longer term goal brings to the forefront of how little time you have left.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#163

Post by awesomeMilou »

xyzelement wrote: post #146
hirvi74 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you assume the world is against you and dangerous then setting into an ambiguous space is probabilistically negative. I have seen zero evidence that this is not true in my 31 years on this planet. > If you have faith that things work out for the best, it lets you set out on such a path easier. As Louis C.K. said: > "An optimist is somebody who says, 'Maybe something nice will happen?' Why they fuck would anythin…

I love Louis CK but you're quoting a joke. In reality almost everything we do is rooted in some optimism. Ever go on a job interview? It's because someone deep down you trust that it or another one like it will land you a job. Ever go on a date? It's because deep down you trust that something will work out with someone. Maybe you don't do these things, or maybe you do these things expecting bad outcomes (which ironic…

> Ever go on a job interview? It's because someone deep down you trust that it or another one like it will land you a job. Ever go on a date? It's because deep down you trust that something will work out with someone.

I trust statistical outcomes. I wouldn't trust going to just _one_ job interview in order to get a job, unless there's some extraordinary circumstance. Likewise, with dating, it's a game of statistics, or rather luck and attraction (simplified of course).

I have the same "deep down trust" for some random HR guy, as I would for a random stranger: none.

In addition, some things you can only do once. Like get a degree. Or start a company, because you only have the funding for one attempt. Not saying that it should keep someone from taking a risk, the point is though, this risk should be well calculated at least in the areas where information can be obtained.

Ask your insurance company or bank on how many decisions they make based on "deep down trust" or "a gut feeling".

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#164

Post by adadadadadad »

Swizec wrote: post #159
adadadadadad wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Today is the day” and sometimes it just is. It’s nice to tell yourself a story as to why this is the ideal moment to have a reset.

The thing that worked for me was getting so bored of being depressed that one day my mind went “Okay fine, you’re right, nothing matters. If nothing matters, then me feeling this way doesn’t matter either. I’ll just go do the things regardless of how I feel” Been 20 years now. Works fine. The depression has been starved of attention, only comes back when I’m hungry.

Sounds like the latter...

> Nihilism is often associated with feelings of despair, pessimism, and apathy, as it challenges traditional beliefs and values. However, some argue that it can also lead to a sense of freedom and liberation, as it allows individuals to create their own meaning and values without being bound by pre-existing structures.

It is counter-intuitive to the traditional: find meaning and purpose dogma.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#165

Post by Swizec »

adadadadadad wrote: post #164
Swizec wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that worked for me was getting so bored of being depressed that one day my mind went “Okay fine, you’re right, nothing matters. If nothing matters, then me feeling this way doesn’t matter either. I’ll just go do the things regardless of how I feel” Been 20 years now. Works fine. The depression has been starved of attention, only comes back when I’m hungry.

Sounds like the latter... > Nihilism is often associated with feelings of despair, pessimism, and apathy, as it challenges traditional beliefs and values. However, some argue that it can also lead to a sense of freedom and liberation, as it allows individuals to create their own meaning and values without being bound by pre-existing structures. It is counter-intuitive to the traditional: find meaning and purpose dogm…

Years later, I read Viktor Frankl and his approach really resonated with me. He adds the nuance that you need meaning, but you can create your own out of anything.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#166

Post by hirvi74 »

adadadadadad wrote: post #153
hirvi74 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm doubly screwed. Like you said > "It's the classic situation of someone without ADHD telling us "just focus!" or "you just need to write things down!" or "you're just lazy". Of course, this advice was never helpful and did not work. However, I was properly diagnosed, went to medication route, coupled it with therapy, and I'm still not better. Now, the medication and all that is definitely better than nothing, and…

Be cautious, the meds can make it worse in the long run as your brain seeks homeostasis and now demands even more dopamine than before to motivate.

I swear you are on to something. I have been on them for 9 years, and I am basically fried and useless. It's as if I had never been treated at all, if not worse than that. I feel like I am in a constant state of burnout, without actually being burned out, so to speak.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#167

Post by adadadadadad »

hindsightbias wrote: post #68
adadadadadad wrote: post #39

I wonder if anyone had success by handing control of their life to a higher power…like ChatGPT. I wonder if you could prompt it to be a vicious task master boss who demands regular status updates and can adequately shame you.

What if we built procrastination into LLMs?

ChatGPT prompt: Play the role of someone with ADHD who is easily distracted and loses interest in tasks. I will ask you to do a task, and then we will have a dialog....Can you please put the dishes into the dishwasher.

It's a pretty frustrating experience haha.

EDIT: God...it does it so unbelievably well. I can even ask it about its inner emotional state that led it to being distracted.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#168

Post by dovelome »

masto wrote: post #12

The oversimplification and promises that if you just buy their thing you'll have a distraction free life in 14 days really irks me. I struggled with this stuff for over 40 years. Only last year, after a disastrous crash, did I start learning about ADHD, which finally gave me the language and tools and access to support that I needed to start making a meaningful difference. Without the understanding that diagnosis gav…

Sorry to heard that. I also have adhd and I’ve looking for solutions since I was 11 years old, now I am 29 years old and pretty much tested all the vitamins, exams, medication, therapy and bunch of other things. Today I found how to manage my adhd, the basic stuff, eat well, exercise and sleep well. It seems so simple but we need to find a synergy between all the basic, vitamins we sometimes have to take, CBT and so on. The doctor Le Grand on YouTube helped to discover a lot of alternative treatments and it worked, so well that I think I am using the super power of adhd and not longer controlled by a incessant mental energy.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#169

Post by adadadadadad »

hirvi74 wrote: post #166
adadadadadad wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be cautious, the meds can make it worse in the long run as your brain seeks homeostasis and now demands even more dopamine than before to motivate.

I swear you are on to something. I have been on them for 9 years, and I am basically fried and useless. It's as if I had never been treated at all, if not worse than that. I feel like I am in a constant state of burnout, without actually being burned out, so to speak.

You will find that a lot of negative ADHD med discussion is censored. Even on HN if you question the science or legitimacy of an ADHD diagnosis you will have posts removed. It's a pretty deep rabbit hole to go down if you are game, and there are massive financial incentives to increasing diagnosis rates.

If you drink too much coffee it loses its effect. This is the same but with a much stronger and extremely addictive drug.

Some readings:

ADHD in the DSM-5-TR: What has changed and what has not - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9871920/

The scientific integrity of ADHD: A critical examination of the underpinning theoretical constructs- https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychiatry/articles/10....

Tolerance to Stimulant Medication for Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder: Literature Review and Case Report https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9332474/

ADHD is sold as a neurodevelopmental disorder which means you had it since birth, where they hypothesize that your brain doesn't make enough dopamine so you can't focus, so they simply return it to "normal" levels with meds. This is used to justify why normal people can't have it, and also why ADHD people won't simply develop tolerance and get addicted. But there is no "normal" across people. Your brain ships with a system that does everything it can to maintain its levels of dopamine, aka homeostasis.

There is no conclusive brain imaging evidence of it being a result of a brain defect. It could just as well be environmental or masquerading as social media addiction, or any other afflictions caused by rapid societal change. So you potentially mess up everyone's brains and get them hooked on pills for a lifetime. It would take a long time to re-adjust back to normal dopamine levels, so most people won't go through this process because it will be years of finding it harder than it originally was to focus.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#170

Post by adadadadadad »

troad wrote: post #158
adadadadadad wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They need deadlines where they feel shame if they fail. And they will do anything to avoid having them. To provide the necessary structure and disciplining as a partner is next to impossible in a relationship of equals. They need some external force to exert pressure, which is usually a strict boss and job, but usually they will just leave their job if the income is not needed. A lot of ADHD advice promotes being mor…

Is this take based on any medical evidence? I note you're casting your take as contrary to a 'lot of ADHD advice', but it's not clear to me whether you're implying that (a) a lot of popular ADHD advice is scientifically unsound and your advice is more in line with the science, or whether you're saying that (b) both the ADHD advice and the science it is based on is wrong, but your take is right. Edit: Saw some of your…

"ADHD" is pseudo-science in my opinion. The impairment to life is certainly real. But the cause is unproven, and for ADHD and the medication, it must be present since birth...a brain defect...but we live in an incredibly distracting environment due to social media and all the societal change coupled with that.

> For the case of ADHD specifically, this is translated to: “if an individual has attention deficit hyperactivity disorder it is because he is inattentive, disorganized and hyperactive-impulsive, and if an individual is inattentive, disorganized and hyperactive-impulsive it is because he has ADHD.

> ADHD in the DSM-5-TR: What has changed and what has not - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9871920/

--

My take on this situation is based on common sense and personal experience.

I would be interested to read the science that counters this if you have it.

ADHD people tend to leave things to the last minute. But the reason they start in the first place is because of the deadline's existence and strictness - the physical reaction of stress when they finally consider the consequences. If you acknowledge they leave things to the last minute and account for that by making deadlines less strict and more forgiving, then the motivating and focusing power of the deadline decreases and they can just make excuses and don't find the deadline motivating enough to start.

The key is maintaining the motivational power of the deadline.

The smaller the deadline, usually the less motivating power it has and the less consequences it has to missing it. It's all a delicate psychological dance, but at some point the person needs to push up against a negative emotion now and then...which our modern culture seems to want to entirely eliminate.

Its the age old: why do I only have intense motivation to do the task the night before its due...next time I just need to start earlier...without realizing its the power of the night before that is the key to it all.

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