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Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

canada.ca

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Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#161

Post by loudambiance »

vlovich123 wrote: post #118
virtue3 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah fuck this. Someone on the plane I was on kept triggering it to do bluetooth attacks ('not your airpods') while I was trying to read (and have my earphones on connected via bluetooth so fuck me right?). There's hacked firmware's you can install [0]. I understand that there are probably tons of other devices like this out there but this one was SO fucking popular and easily accessible. I've already seen this thing…

I get that this lowers the barrier to entry, but presumably you could do something similar with a software package to make your laptop do the same thing? AFAIK it uses off the shelf radios and firmware so I don’t really understand the framing here that this device is ok but others aren’t. Especially as others point out it’s unlikely this has anything to do with making car theft easier nor to interfere in any way with…

At one point there was an android that did the exact same attack as well. No need for an additional device.

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#162

Post by bemusedthrow75 »

hansvm wrote: post #126
kevingadd wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem with direct democracy as performed in the US is that it's trivial to manipulate with sufficiently large ad campaigns, because the average voter is not super well informed on most topics and is usually not motivated to dig deeply when i.e. a ride-sharing company spends a cool hundred million to get the legal outcome they want. This is not to say that the alternative is immune to these problems, but as…

Do you mean to tell me that the general public weren't in favor of being screwed over by ride sharing companies, so much so that a 7/8 majority would be required to overturn their "democratic " decision? I'm not sure that HN is an appropriate forum for strong, unsupported opinions like that.

Or sarcasm, to be fair ;-)

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#163

Post by galangalalgol »

Ancapistani wrote: post #135
neilv wrote: post #10

The Flipper Zero is a general-purpose tool and STEM educational device. By banning the device, a country would be setting back their workforce of engineers and scientists a bit. How can you use a Flipper Zero to steal a car? Flipper Zero can't crack hard encryption. Is the real problem that cars were made with security that they already knew was negligently weak at the time? If so, is a recall of those cars more appr…

> How can you use a Flipper Zero to steal a car? A lot of vehicles - my wife’s 2015 Kia included - have a very flawed implementation of rolling key encryption. Basically, you need to capture three consecutive keys. The receiver is programmed to allow any future key (in case the fob was pressed away from the car), and will happily reset to past keys when you send three consecutive keys in sequence. Ostensibly this is…

That is pretty terrible! Is there a good resource on how different schemes work? It would be nice to know when shopping.

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#164

Post by bawolff »

bawolff wrote: post #85

What's the legal instrument they intend to use? Or are they planning to pass a new law? The way this is worded seems to suggest its already in the authority of ISED to ban these, if so, does anyone know what law would give them that right?

After some googling. (Ianal)

ISED is responsible for the radiocommunication act. Section 6(1) seems to give pretty broad powers to regulate different radio devices. https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/r-2/page-2.html perhaps its broad enough to allow banning such devices.

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#165

Post by melevittfl »

mistercheph wrote: post #106
15457345234 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What would be okay is to ban the use of an F0 to steal a car. Ban carrying them. If it's truly an educational tool you don't need to carry it around with you. Same as (in the UK) carrying a set of lockpicks is grounds to be arrested for 'going equipped' unless you're a locksmith.

Forgive me if as an American I hold up the English people and their government as a model of how a free and democratic nation ought not to be.

Yeah, but we can freely buy and eat chocolate Kinder eggs.

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#166

Post by bawolff »

dcan wrote: post #4

Like every other wide-spanning law the Canadian Government has passed lately (including the one on firearms and the soon-to-pass adult-content on the internet), I imagine they will ban swathes of legal products that use RF and do nothing to actually prevent crimes from occurring. Thanks to our Parliament!

Are they passing a new law or just using the existing one from 1985?

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#167

Post by anigbrowl »

happytoexplain wrote: post #146
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a script kiddie tool that requires zero knowledge of radio theory and programming.

Requires != facilitates. Why be so dismissive?

GP is arguing that the trivially easy operation of the F0 doesn't provide any educational experience.

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#168

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

frankus wrote: post #30
neilv wrote: post #10

The Flipper Zero is a general-purpose tool and STEM educational device. By banning the device, a country would be setting back their workforce of engineers and scientists a bit. How can you use a Flipper Zero to steal a car? Flipper Zero can't crack hard encryption. Is the real problem that cars were made with security that they already knew was negligently weak at the time? If so, is a recall of those cars more appr…

Can a FZ assist in enrolling a new key in the ECU immobilizer’s list of approved keys, or does it just facilitate a relatively quiet way of unlocking the doors? Because honestly there are lots of ways of gaining access to the inside of a vehicle, and if it can’t enroll a new key it’s neither necessary nor sufficient for stealing a vehicle.

This is why keyless fobs are such a bad idea. Transponder keys that have to be in the lock are much more secure as a form of 2FA.

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#169

Post by gloryjulio »

advael wrote: post #102

So if I'm reading this right, they're banning something that is too underpowered to run the exploits people are using to steal cars (which are only possible in the first place because car companies' threat model is mostly about their customers rather than thieves) in order to pretend to do something about car theft I've been pretty happy on balance with measures introduced through direct democracy in recent years (mo…

> in order to pretend to do something about ...

That basically summaries the Canadian government's history, and how we end up in multiple crisis and negative gdp per capita situation now.

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#170

Post by BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 »

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #39
dcan wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s only three federal police agencies - the RCMP, CPKC Police Service, and the CN Police Service. The local law enforcement has to pass off the information to the relevant agency to abide by the separations of power. The problem here is probably the criminal lied about what was in the cargo container, and to process the tens of thousands of titles to ship new vehicles to manufacturers is obscene - and even then,…

In this case a local police officer was at the location where the stolen vehicle, and probably hundreds of others were. There was no CN police present. In cases where there are no CN police, then local police should automatically get jurisdiction. Otherwise, like in this case, criminals just get a free pass. > to process the tens of thousands of titles to ship new vehicles to manufacturers is obscene - and even then,…

The gangs are making up phony shipping and customs manifests and hiding behind the rail and port authorities, who are enabling the gangs.

It's going to take some manpower, but every container going overseas will have to be inspected during loading.

The government's "solution" is putting in high tech x million dollar scanners that will take years to implement while the gangs keep stealing and shipping.

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