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Goodbye non-KISS appliances

willbush.dev

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Re: Goodbye non-KISS appliances

#161

Post by arter4 »

navbaker wrote: post #156
beAbU wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Just close the door properly. Ajust the feet so the fridge stands on a slight angle, so the door swings shut on it's own. What help is a temperature alarm if you are away. A fridge is used daily, surely you'll notice if the temperature is not what it's supposed to be.

Have you ever been around kids? They have a complete lack of situational awareness that leads to things like not noticing they’ve not pushed the fridge door shut and sealed all the way after grabbing cheese and running back to play. I can’t tell you how many times the chime on our LG has let us know to push the door closed.

I admit I don't have kids, but AFAIK kids can do all kind of stuff, like putting crayons in the dishwasher or accidentally breaking things. You usually don't have sensors for all kinds of scenario (what if my kid breaks a glass? what if she starts drawing on the wall?). You either don't care and fix the thing later on, or you try to prevent that from happening, or a combination of the two. Sensors and notifications are not a reasonable solution to everything.

Re: Goodbye non-KISS appliances

#162

Post by qwertox »

brodsky wrote: post #25

When we upgraded our appliances, the "smart" or "wifi-enabled" ones were specifically avoided like the plague. "Dumb" appliances - especially fridges, for some reason - are becoming hard to come by, but they do exist. Electrolux, KitchenAid, even LG all make some no-frills models that can save both money and frustration. Hopefully those companies continue serving the "luddite techie" market.

I've "smartified" my washing machine by using as smart plug with included power meter. This gives me all the info I want to know about the washing machine and there are no vendors spying on my washing habits.

When the replacement thermostat of my fridge broke I replaced it with an ESP32 with a DS18B20 and a relay, now it posts temperature data to a logging server and the temperature range can be adjusted over WiFi when needed. Here again, I guess if it were really smart, that this would mean that the vendor would place the requirement of me sharing all the data with them so that they then give me a subset of data.

Re: Goodbye non-KISS appliances

#163

Post by mewpmewp2 »

rglullis wrote: post #157
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have an image of the fridge you could have GPT vision interpret it and offer you recipes or what is missing. I personally like the idea of smart home things and everything connected. It feels like it opens up so many possibilities or ideas. Do I need it for survival? No. But I do like the idea and how it triggers my imagination.

It also (literally) opens up your home for many ideas and possibilities for attackers. Not just for the "haxxor" types, but the far more sneaky, sweet-talking ones. It should not trigger just your imagination, but your paranoia.

Yes of course, but for example you already have your phone, laptops and computers with many things built in them. If you are ok with those, then it should be possible to build those smart devices with similar security and potential for attack.

Re: Goodbye non-KISS appliances

#164

Post by freetanga »

darreninthenet wrote: post #72
arter4 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I agree. I'm not a luddite per se - heck, I make a living out of making stuff talk to one another on a network. But I don't get the appeal, from a customer standpoint, of having all physical objects talk to you or to the Internet. Like, why? I get it when it comes to alarm systems. Being able to get a notification when someone breaks in is nice, because the alarm system is mostly doing its job when you're not at…

Fridge/freezer one is handy for temperature and door open alarms

My dumb freezer beeps like hell if left open. That is it’s only trick

Re: Goodbye non-KISS appliances

#165

Post by arter4 »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #163
rglullis wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also (literally) opens up your home for many ideas and possibilities for attackers. Not just for the "haxxor" types, but the far more sneaky, sweet-talking ones. It should not trigger just your imagination, but your paranoia.

Yes of course, but for example you already have your phone, laptops and computers with many things built in them. If you are ok with those, then it should be possible to build those smart devices with similar security and potential for attack.

Yes but while you can install Linux on your own, or even build your own computer if you're interested, you don't get to build a fridge or its operating system, and you most likely don't even have a valid way to see how it's configured (you may be able to hack it somehow, but it would probably void any warranty).

So...

do you upgrade your fridge OS? Maybe, maybe not. What happens if you do and an upgrade fails?

does it talk to the Internet? If it has to (by design), then all bets are off. You could try to mirror traffic and take a packet capture, but a fridge OS could easily use HTTPS over a "smart.myfridge.com" domain and you wouldn't know what's going on.

How does it even authenticate to whatever remote server they have? If it uses tokens or client certificates, what happens when they expire?

I'm a sysadmin, I know things fail. Even laptops and phones. But, while I can see valid use cases for laptops and phones, I still fail to see the actual appeal of most "smart home" appliances, outside of security systems. And I don't want to have nightmares about my fridge certificate expiration or not being able to turn your light on because my fiber connection went down.

Re: Goodbye non-KISS appliances

#166

Post by laeri »

bee_rider wrote: post #121
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do Americans have so big cars then? Seeing the cars was most shocking thing for me when visiting US.

Lower population density and bad zoning means the trip to the grocery store is farther, so you only want to go once every week or two. So, you get a bigger car, to fit more groceries and a bigger fridge for the same reason. Then, some stupid person fills their car completely with groceries, can’t see out the back window, and backs into you. So, you get a still bigger car, so they can’t possibly help but see you, and…

It actually makes sense to own a larger car and fridge in this case. I wouldn't have thought about this as I usually go once or twice a day to the grocery store and just buy what I currently need as the grocery is on my way to work (walking distance).

Re: Goodbye non-KISS appliances

#167

Post by rglullis »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #163
rglullis wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also (literally) opens up your home for many ideas and possibilities for attackers. Not just for the "haxxor" types, but the far more sneaky, sweet-talking ones. It should not trigger just your imagination, but your paranoia.

Yes of course, but for example you already have your phone, laptops and computers with many things built in them. If you are ok with those, then it should be possible to build those smart devices with similar security and potential for attack.

> If you are ok with those

I'm not. My phone, laptop and computers all run software that I get to install down to the OS (Linux, /e/OS), and I would never install something like the ChatGPT app on my phone.

> it should be possible to build those smart devices with similar security

It should be possible, but they are not. Don't forget: the "S" in IoT stands for "Security".

In any case, this is not even what I am talking about. What I am talking about is the "attack" being done by corporations into your house. It pains me to hear that people are willing to give so much of their privacy in the name of "convenience" and don't even show any slight concern over the thought of having so much data going to Google, Amazon, Apple, Microsoft and (now) OpenAI.

If you went to someone's home and they told you "by the way, my home is full of microphones and video cameras which are always on and used to power my digital assistant", how would you feel?

Re: Goodbye non-KISS appliances

#168

Post by arter4 »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #160
arter4 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but if it's interactive I can open a fridge, take a picture of it and upload it to ChatGPT. You wouldn't need a smart fridge for that. You would need a smart fridge if you wanted to directly connect the fridge with ChatGPT. Which is what I assumed in the previous comment.

You may be at work, and store is on the way to work. Also what you described is quite many steps, and the images have to be taken at certain angles to capture everything. It would be directly connected to GPT and you can either use it as mobile app or with other devices or fridge itself directly. So for example you are at work, about to leave home, store is on the way and then you ask this question from the app. Frid…

So you're saying a fridge takes a photo (of itself, essentially... a selfie?), forwards it with certain prompts to a GPT and then gives you the response. But as I said earlier I might not like certain foods, or I may actively avoid certain foods for medical or religious reasons.

Now, if this was an explicit user-GPT interaction, you could prompt the GPT with "hey, I'm Muslim, what can I cook with this stuff?" or "hey, I'm lactose intolerant, what else could I buy?". You do need to trust the OpenAI provider, but not the fridge.

Instead, the fridge automatically talks to GPT. So if you want to avoid "dumb" suggestions you wouldn't be able to follow, you would have to tell your fridge you're Jew or Muslim or lactose intolerant or diabetic. Don't you see an issue with this?

I'm not "tinfoil hat" paranoid, I don't think people are out there to get me. But a certain dose of skepticism when it comes to data usage should be healthy, especially when many companies have been known to mess up this aspect (from Cambridge Analytica to Roomba employers sending pictures of a woman on the toilet to Facebook, and much more). You cannot avoid this 100% unless you go to extreme lengths, but if you can avoid sending data to one more company, why not?

Re: Goodbye non-KISS appliances

#169

Post by bell-cot »

darreninthenet wrote: post #72
arter4 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I agree. I'm not a luddite per se - heck, I make a living out of making stuff talk to one another on a network. But I don't get the appeal, from a customer standpoint, of having all physical objects talk to you or to the Internet. Like, why? I get it when it comes to alarm systems. Being able to get a notification when someone breaks in is nice, because the alarm system is mostly doing its job when you're not at…

Fridge/freezer one is handy for temperature and door open alarms

I'd say a temperature alarm - if I happen to feel I need one - should be a physically separate little thing. With it's own programmable temperature range. Usually it's in the fridge. But during a cold spell, I can adjust and move it to a spot where I'm worried the pipes might freeze. Or turn it into a "is the A/C working?" watchdog during a heat wave. Or, I can buy several to cover all those. But they're all one make & model, so I don't have to install/learn/use 5 different crappy apps for 'em.

And that way the the fridge can't die...and quietly take its built-in alarm with it.

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