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Mourning Google

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Re: Mourning Google

#161

Post by fnikacevic »

herval wrote: post #36
fancyfredbot wrote: post #18

Part of me is actually happy that Google lost its shine. A part of this is certainly schadenfreude, for which I am obviously ashamed, but there is another side to it. I remember the awe/respect with which people thought of Google back in the mid-'oughts. Working there carried this huge cachet that few tech companies can compare to today (maybe OpenAI). All these amazing engineers went to work there and everyone was j…

> Working there carried this huge cachet that few tech companies can compare to today It also was allegedly a "special" place, where you had autonomy as an engineer, yada yada. From what I hear about openai, that doesn't really apply there. Are there any small-but-large-ish companies (100-1k employees) out there today that have a culture similar to the early google?

The perception of autonomy at Google was somewhat marketing. In reality the company was extremely rigorous and top down. They used the perception to hire the creative genius types they wanted.

Eric Schmidt (Former CEO of Google) discusses it here: https://youtu.be/hcRxFRgNpns?t=2154

Re: Mourning Google

#162

Post by DonHopkins »

vanderZwan wrote: post #22

> To me this feels like a big inflection point, because around the stumbling feet of the Big Tech dinosaurs, the Web’s mammals, agile and flexible, still scurry. Tangent: I kinda hate this metaphor. It reinforces this incredibly outdated idea that dinosaurs - or any other extinct life-form - went extinct because they were an evolutionary dead end. (Also, since I do not know a single nerd who isn't into dinosaurs the…

>If Big Tech really are metaphorically comparable to the big dinosaurs, then I don't want to think about what it would take for them to go down.

Another Trump presidency.

Re: Mourning Google

#163

Post by bogwog »

Google used to be truly great. Their business was inherently evil, yet they were somehow not. They actually did good, and as a naive highschooler with a programming hobby, they inspired me to try to be the best I can at it.

But they crashed hard. Almost as soon as I started college, they began the quick descent into evilness (about the time Pichai became CEO).

They're irredeemable at this point, and the only solution left is a breakup or a massive amount of regulation. Still, I think Google is unique among the tech giants because they really were a force for good at one point. That's why I hate them the least, even though they're probably at #2 or #3 in the evil leaderboard.

Re: Mourning Google

#164

Post by twisteriffic »

nostrademons wrote: post #68
vanderZwan wrote: post #22

> To me this feels like a big inflection point, because around the stumbling feet of the Big Tech dinosaurs, the Web’s mammals, agile and flexible, still scurry. Tangent: I kinda hate this metaphor. It reinforces this incredibly outdated idea that dinosaurs - or any other extinct life-form - went extinct because they were an evolutionary dead end. (Also, since I do not know a single nerd who isn't into dinosaurs the…

This description actually makes me feel like the metaphor is more apt. The dinosaurs went down because they were large, complex lifeforms that required a vibrant, complex ecosystem to support them. Amidst a fundamental shift to that ecosystem, large complex organisms were the first to go down. This is a general pattern - complex systems are always the first to collapse when there's a shift in the ecosystem, because t…

Those public institutions are being _made_ to fail right now. Purposefully. Not by unthinking forces of nature but by conscious effort.

Re: Mourning Google

#165

Post by DonHopkins »

cousin_it wrote: post #16

I have a different theory about the cause of the decline. Google 10-15 years ago had a clear idea of how to win: hire the best programmers, give them freedom, and they'll build products that will win in every market. And, well, that hasn't happened. Long before the current talk of Google's decline, there was talk of the Google black hole, where talented people would get hired and their noteworthy output would drop to…

Game Helpin' Squad: A Pissed Off Tutorial For Google Wave

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z4RKRLaSug

Re: Mourning Google

#166

Post by fidotron »

Chathamization wrote: post #124
cousin_it wrote: post #16

I have a different theory about the cause of the decline. Google 10-15 years ago had a clear idea of how to win: hire the best programmers, give them freedom, and they'll build products that will win in every market. And, well, that hasn't happened. Long before the current talk of Google's decline, there was talk of the Google black hole, where talented people would get hired and their noteworthy output would drop to…

That's the impression I have. I remember a little over a decade ago when the population at large was completely hyped about all of the world changing technology we were going to see coming from the moonshots at Google X. The excitement over Google Glass, the mystery over the Google barges. Eventually, people started wondering when these hyped up products in development were going to actually become products[1]. Not i…

I think you could go further - the old Google culture was not great at teamwork, and most definitely not when teams crossed boundaries with third parties, where they would expect to be dictating reality and struggled when this wasn’t possible. (Credit where it is due - certain people in the Android group worked this out and changed their tune, and much money was made as a result).

There are limits to how much tiny teams can do and old Google was pushing those limits too often.

Part of the function of a Jobs type character is to be the defining asshole in the organization that no one has a chance of defeating alone.

Re: Mourning Google

#167

Post by MrPatan »

Chathamization wrote: post #124
cousin_it wrote: post #16

I have a different theory about the cause of the decline. Google 10-15 years ago had a clear idea of how to win: hire the best programmers, give them freedom, and they'll build products that will win in every market. And, well, that hasn't happened. Long before the current talk of Google's decline, there was talk of the Google black hole, where talented people would get hired and their noteworthy output would drop to…

That's the impression I have. I remember a little over a decade ago when the population at large was completely hyped about all of the world changing technology we were going to see coming from the moonshots at Google X. The excitement over Google Glass, the mystery over the Google barges. Eventually, people started wondering when these hyped up products in development were going to actually become products[1]. Not i…

The market, made up of a lot of people, seems to think the richest man in the world is pretty valuable.

A subset of people around here don't think that way. Why? I have my own opinion, not very flattering.

Re: Mourning Google

#168

Post by DonHopkins »

fidotron wrote: post #79
rezonant wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Search was a product designed by two engineers. Maps from 2005 was a very sleek product, but at the time there were no competitors on the web, and now Maps is so ubiquitous, and requires such an insane data investment, that we'll probably never know the ideal Maps design, because every competitor out there is still catching up. Their primary advantage was the money they threw at mapping data and the ability for them…

“Gmail was not actually a particularly elegant product design” It popularized instant search, tagging and threading to such a degree you have clearly forgotten how elegant it was!

And excellent spam filtering. The irony of having an advertising company filter out your advertisements so you only see theirs. And loving it.

SUPERCUT Every "And loving it" in Get Smart (1965-1970)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aeETaCsop8

Re: Mourning Google

#169

Post by coldpie »

moritzwarhier wrote: post #118
coldpie wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, sorta. Plenty of psychotic smart guys around in big tech, too, which is a potent combo. Bezos; Zuckerberg; Musk, if his loose spending habits qualify him as a big tech leader. Capitalism rewards psychopaths the most, without guardrails they're gonna win every time, everywhere.

Psychosis and psychopathic (or antisocial) traits are very different psychiatric phenomena. They are not even similar, also psychosis is often temporary. So maybe people should look for a different "smart" way of describing craziness. Or, if you want to use psychiatric terms, subclinic antisocial persobality disorder is most closely related to business success, as far as I know.

Sorry, I was (trying to) use the same term as the person I was replying to.

Re: Mourning Google

#170

Post by deltaburnt »

bsenftner wrote: post #45
rezonant wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your theory doesn't match the timeline. Under the engineering first strategy, Google became the juggernaut it is today, with products like Gmail, Maps, Street View and of course Search. Unfortunately, the approach doesn't work for all product categories. Product design, usability, simplicity, and sheer style were not the forte of the Google of old. As a result they saw themselves fall behind Facebook in social, faile…

My theory is any engineer led organization is doomed to fail because the STEM education does not include professional communications, and as a result any engineer led project and organization has communications issues that ultimately lead to failure. Quality communications is so critical in any collaborative, it is simply amazing an emphasis on communications is not a part of technology development - where "new" and…

My degree required a communications course, and a full year senior project course that included pitching, design documents, and demos. My understanding is plenty other universities require similar courses.

Furthermore, even if that were true, companies (especially ones like Google) look for project and product managers that have CS degrees or other STEM degrees.

Personally, my frustration with project/product managers often comes from (ironically) underspecified requirements and highly unrealistic deadlines. Neither of those I consider a failing of their education or skills, but a failing of the company's reward structures.

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