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Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

nytimes.com

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Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#161

Post by Tactician_mark »

PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #101
xyst wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real blunder in this country is the lack of viable alternative transportation options in a majority of the nation. Visited NYC recently and didn’t need to rent a car. Primarily took the bus, ferry, and rail car/trains. In some cases I just walked from my hotel to the destination. Could have rented one of the e-bikes as well. Transportation costs for just 1 week were less than $100 (a quarter of this was because o…

quick, someone tell that small rural community of 600 people they need public transportation! When people express opinions like this you immediately know they live in the city and think everyone else does too.

This discussion is about public EV charging. If you live somewhere rural or suburban and can afford a car, you can probably afford a garage for it. The push for public EV charging is in more urban places, where public transit would be a better investment.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#162

Post by itishappy »

FireBeyond wrote: post #138
itishappy wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> did you have an accurate gauge of exactly how far you could travel? My ICE almost stranded me during the recent freeze. Conditions affect fuel economy for all vehicles. > Did you have reliable, strong heat in the cabin? This feels like an imagined problem. EVs heat their cabin more efficiently than ICEs. If you end up off the road during a storm (been there) an EV will last longer for the same fill level. They also…

> EVs heat their cabin more efficiently than ICEs. Citation needed. Are EVs using different cabin heating to ICEs? My Audi will recirculate waste engine and coolant heat to the cabin for up to 20 minutes (like if you're in a grocery store) with nothing but a fan. > They also tend to heat up faster due to not having to adjust the entire thermal mass of the engine block. An ICE doesn't heat the engine block? Modern ICE…

> Citation needed. Are EVs using different cabin heating to ICEs?

I'm not sure how to cite the fact that EVs do not have engines. Electric motors do generate waste heat, but via a significantly more efficient process, so an additional source of heat is needed.

> An ICE doesn't heat the engine block?

Yes they do. Where's your Audi recirculating waste heat from?

Auxiliary heating systems like you describe are the exact same design that EVs use as primaries, just driven electrically. Advantages are that the electricity to torque conversion is still significantly more efficient than chemical energy conversion, and you can run the system without powering the main drive.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#163

Post by Symbiote »

PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #151
Arnt wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two end stations existed, and enough in between the make the railway feasible. Then the existence of paths to two big cities made some villages grow, and grow, and grow.

the two end stations exist because people were already there, they didn't build that railway across the US before these areas were settled. What you're arguing is that there are towns that would pop up around these railways after the fact, and while that's true, they would also pop up around water, gold, and other natural resources. It turns out there's lots of reasons why communities form, but one thing we know for…

The USA has several many towns and cities which were built because of railways.

Railways induce demand, both for work for the railway (moving trains, moving goods between trains, services for passengers), and for the excellent transport connections they provide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_railway_towns_in_the_U...

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#164

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy »

eli wrote: post #144
PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

quick, someone tell that small rural community of 600 people they need public transportation! When people express opinions like this you immediately know they live in the city and think everyone else does too.

What percentage of Americans live in a community with 600 or fewer people? There are very few policy decisions that will be universally good for everyone. That doesn't automatically make them bad policies.

The real question you're asking is what percentage of people live in areas where public transportation isn't reasonable.

it's a lot larger than you think, especially if you're a city dweller.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#165

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy »

Tactician_mark wrote: post #161
PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

quick, someone tell that small rural community of 600 people they need public transportation! When people express opinions like this you immediately know they live in the city and think everyone else does too.

This discussion is about public EV charging. If you live somewhere rural or suburban and can afford a car, you can probably afford a garage for it. The push for public EV charging is in more urban places, where public transit would be a better investment.

the thread is about EV charging, this particular branch of the discussion is about public transportation.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#166

Post by FireBeyond »

itishappy wrote: post #162
FireBeyond wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EVs heat their cabin more efficiently than ICEs. Citation needed. Are EVs using different cabin heating to ICEs? My Audi will recirculate waste engine and coolant heat to the cabin for up to 20 minutes (like if you're in a grocery store) with nothing but a fan. > They also tend to heat up faster due to not having to adjust the entire thermal mass of the engine block. An ICE doesn't heat the engine block? Modern ICE…

> Citation needed. Are EVs using different cabin heating to ICEs? I'm not sure how to cite the fact that EVs do not have engines. Electric motors do generate waste heat, but via a significantly more efficient process, so an additional source of heat is needed. > An ICE doesn't heat the engine block? Yes they do. Where's your Audi recirculating waste heat from? Auxiliary heating systems like you describe are the exact…

> Auxiliary heating systems like you describe are the exact same design that EVs use as primaries, just driven electrically.

I'm confused, what non-electrical method of generating cabin heat are EVs using, then?

But for the sake of argument - auxiliary heating in an ICE is similar to a floor heater, electrical resistance heating.

Beyond that, the argument is that on an ICE, the heat in the engine block is a byproduct of the combustion required to move the vehicle. That heat isn't "free", but is paid for by the primary purpose of moving the vehicle. The effort to push it into the cabin via fans is relatively minimal.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#167

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #159
PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

now you're getting it. they drive into town because these areas don't have the density that cities do and the towns themselves aren't large enough to justify public transportation, especially considering that even the non-farmers typically will live many miles from where they purchase their groceries, etc.

My home town has public transport, called the Handi-Van. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redvers,_Saskatchewan Population 1,000.

https://sk.211.ca/services/town-office-43/handi-van-transit/

> Eligibility

> Elderly individuals and those with special needs.

which is what I expected when I went looking, calling that public transportation is against the spirit of what we're discussing here.

My further guess is that the majority of the people in this town are elderly (retirement community).

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#168

Post by somerandomqaguy »

epistasis wrote: post #41
jdpedrie wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The differences are a) you don't lose notable range in cold weather (and your car continues to reliably tell you your remaining range), and b) there's always another gas station a block down.

Yes, you do lose notable range in a gas car in cold weather: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml It's really interesting what sort of things are considered problems with EVs that just get ignored with gas cars. The dual standard is pretty interesting to observe.

The largest offender for ICE fuel economy loss in winter is low tire pressure (IIRC accounts for 3% loss). The winter gasoline blended fuel accounts for the next largest but IIRC it's semi made up for because winter blends are less expensive then summer blended fuel.

And a longer commute makes a gas car more efficient as the engine has time to come up to operating temperature. Something that EV's are weaker at.

So it is more of an issue for BEV's depending on what kind of commute you have and whether you easy access to daily charging.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#170

Post by incomingpain »

FireBeyond wrote: post #147
incomingpain wrote: post #31

I find myself a bit of an outcast in my social groups. My conservative friends dislike EVs, but I very much love them and will be buying an EV next. I'm holding out for a solid state battery generation. When it's -40c and you're running the video security systems. It only drains about 1% a day. Yes you have less range, but so does gasoline. About the same amount of loss. Turning it on... harder for gasoline. Better p…

> Yes you have less range, but so does gasoline. About the same amount of loss. This is absolutely not the case. The worst case scenario for ICEs (cold starts, intermittent short trips so the engine block doesn't get heat) is 15%. The average for EV in subfreezing is about 24% loss. And up to 39% when you're on longer trips and heating the cabin for extended periods.

you say 'average ev' to include the 1st generation evs that are trash and had no cold weather capabilities. Yes -50% range can be expected. Terrible!

The kia soul for example, which originally had 150km range has been upgraded now. I believe the cold weather package is standard now?

Today in 3rd generation evs, you have to cross the heat pump temp limit of -25c for there to be worse then ICE range losses.

There's obviously always going to be rough losses. Afterall, the colder it is, the more I want to jack up the heat.

Ford, chevy, and vw I believe are still in 2nd gen? Though honestly I havent heard how well the new ultium are doing for chevy?

I believe 3rd gens, jaguar, audi, and tesla at -20c will be around -5% range loss or so?

Personally I'm waiting on 4th gen with solid state batteries in hopes/expectations they handle the cold weather better. afterall it is -15c right now for me. Toyota has all the patents and might be first to market?

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