Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids • Hacker News Board

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#161

Post by causi » Thu, Nov 16, 2023, 5:24 AM UTC

broguinn wrote: post #85

pattmayne wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The offending ingredient (alcohol ephoxylate) is present in both my dishwasher pods and my rinse aid. I might start skipping the rinse aid and I'll seek out dishwasher pods that don't have that ingredient. But apparently it's more od an issue with "professional" (restaurant) dishwashers, which use less water and more chemicals. I gathered this from other comments and I don't know if it's true.

I've looked at the dishwasher detergents at a few of my local grocery stores, and all of them contain either ethoxylates or "fatty alcohol alkoxylates", which some brief googling tells me are a class of chemicals that include ethoxylates. I've been unable (even at specialty health food stores) to locate a dishwasher detergent that lacks this class of chemical. If you find a brand that doesn't contain it, please let m…

Generic Walmart powder doesn't seem to have it.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-Automatic-Dishwasher-...

Kroger gel and powder doesn't seem to have it.

https://www.kroger.com/p/kroger-lemon-scent-dishwasher-deter...

Frankly the harmful ingredients seem to be exclusive to pacs and pods.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#162

Post by potatopatch » Thu, Nov 16, 2023, 9:13 AM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #143

potatopatch wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's extremely common to get food poisoning at home, and for many people/cases it is indistinguishable from the flu. Who separates meats in their fridge and on their cutting boards, dates the opening times of items, etc? Similarly, a home dishwasher doesn't actually sterilize anything, which is why its safer AFA chemicals. It's just providing the hope that small doses of something you've already interacted with won't…

>It's extremely common to get food poisoning at home. What does that mean to you? That it will happen to an individual multiple times a year? That it will occur in a large city a few times a year? The risk is hugely overblown in my opinion. Home dishes don't need to be sterile, they just need food and grease removed.

> What does that mean to you?

There are 48 million cases for 350 million Americans a year. Experts say most involve factors at home, I.e. improperly stored leftovers involve both systems, but are attributable to the at home fault..

> The risk is hugely overblown in my opinion

Sure, only about 3000 Americans die a year of food poisoning and most of them will have had other contributing health factors..

I simply reject this idea that a person who thinks food safety is easy is doing food safety really well.

Restaurants have additional complications and risks of not knowing the health of their guests, etc, and having a high volume of food and therefore bacteria passing through. The average home cook scaling up their behaviors would be much more dangerous and doesn't recognize the indicators of mistakes that would kill one of those unlucky 3000 as a house guest.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#163

Post by Two4 » Thu, Nov 16, 2023, 5:01 PM UTC

carlob wrote: post #60

Two4 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you microwaved a steak?!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4tIPFD7W3Q Somebody microwaved a whole brisket, and it was surprisingly good.

I'm shocked, I would never expect a microwave to make anything other than grey, chewy meat

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#164

Post by s1artibartfast » Thu, Nov 16, 2023, 5:54 PM UTC

potatopatch wrote: post #162

s1artibartfast wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's extremely common to get food poisoning at home. What does that mean to you? That it will happen to an individual multiple times a year? That it will occur in a large city a few times a year? The risk is hugely overblown in my opinion. Home dishes don't need to be sterile, they just need food and grease removed.

> What does that mean to you? There are 48 million cases for 350 million Americans a year. Experts say most involve factors at home, I.e. improperly stored leftovers involve both systems, but are attributable to the at home fault.. > The risk is hugely overblown in my opinion Sure, only about 3000 Americans die a year of food poisoning and most of them will have had other contributing health factors.. I simply reject…

Thanks for setting a number. I think we primarily have different definitions of 'extremely common' and how concerned one should be.

I think that is a high estimate of incidence and mortality, but even taken at face value, I still wouldnt call that common. we are talking about a once every 5 year event, or if we apply a pareto (20%/80%) assumption, once every 25 years for a normal healthy person.

For a normal healthy person, I think getting some diarrhea once every 25 (or 5) years isn't a big deal. This tracks with my anecdotal evidence, where most adults can recall having food poisoning one or two times. This, based on my risk tolerance, doesnt even rank on my list of concerns.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#165

Post by ephbit » Thu, Nov 16, 2023, 10:07 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #99

potatopatch wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's extremely common to get food poisoning at home, and for many people/cases it is indistinguishable from the flu. Who separates meats in their fridge and on their cutting boards, dates the opening times of items, etc? Similarly, a home dishwasher doesn't actually sterilize anything, which is why its safer AFA chemicals. It's just providing the hope that small doses of something you've already interacted with won't…

> Similarly, a home dishwasher doesn't actually sterilize anything What do you consider to be sterilization? Even my old dishwasher, which was made in 2002, has a sani-rinse option that adds a 10 minute rinse with 160℉ (71℃) water which the manual says satisfies the NSF Protocol P153 for sanitizing in household spray-type dishwashers. Unfortunately I can't find a free copy of NSF Protocol P153 to see what that actual…

Many posts here about sterilization seem to focus on the temperature.

Yes, having a dishwasher program that thoroughly rinses at 90 °C for 10 minutes will kill most germs in there.

I think this leaves out a very important aspect: how you use your dishwasher has a big impact.

I claim that programs at significantly lower maximum temperatures (say 50 °C) can be safely used as long as people are careful about (a) the state of the items they put in their dishwasher and (b) how they position the items.

If you put in items with lots of and/or big food scraps on them you increase the risk of some of the material being left in some sieve or getting caught in the tray. All material that's left for the final rinse will populate the water with some particles which then cover all items.

Same with dried crusts that only get soaked but not removed by the program.

And also the same with items that are inapropriately positioned, so that food residues aren't reached by the water jets, or so they topple over and fill with water which then also spoils the final rinse.

I'd bet if you reliably prevent the above mentioned things from happening by being careful about which items you put in and how you position them, you can use a low temperature program without any risk at all.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#166

Post by ephbit » Thu, Nov 16, 2023, 10:14 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #104

lnsru wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We separate meats and cutting boards. The ones who were used for meat are being washed very carefully with lots of chemicals and hot water. Dishwasher runs at 65 degree Celsius. That’s enough for disinfection in my books. Plus cleaning with chlorine every 3 months. We have only couple things open in the fridge and don’t keep them for long. That means if pesto is open we eat noodles more often. There is no rocket scie…

> Plus cleaning with chlorine every 3 months Isn't bacteria growth exponential (up until you reach the maximum number that your environment can support)? And don't they often have insane doubling times (something like 20 minutes for salmonella and e. coli)? Given that I'd wonder if cleaning every 3 months actually makes much difference, except for maybe a couple days right after you clean. Past that any that were mis…

> And don't they often have insane doubling times (something like 20 minutes for salmonella and e. coli)?

Such values are AFAIK under ideal conditions, usually meaning on a wet surface or submerged in a watery/damp environment at a mild temperature, with sufficient nutrients .. not really how most people store things like chopping boards or other kitchen equipment.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#167

Post by dotancohen » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 10:53 AM UTC

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #110

danw1979 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The manual just said a citric acid solution so I guess whatever source will do. I suppose it’s just as easy to get a reasonably accurate concentration if you account for the water already present in monohydrate.

What do the dishes look like with this solution? I’ve never used rinse aid or any variants, and i wonder what I’m missing.

According to another comment - you're _not_ missing the printed ink on your dishes. If you are happy with the state that your dishes come out of the wash, then you are fine.